WEBVTT

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if you went to the grocery store gave them your money and left with 10% less

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vomite than you paid for you'd probably be pretty ticked off but what if I told

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you that happens every day except with

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$350 CPUs well it's true these 12 chips

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were obtained over a span of a month from eight different sources spread

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across three separate countries and the real world difference between the best

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and the worst of them is 8% in factorio

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and as much as is 12% in csgo this has

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caused a lot of problems for us over the last 6 months you see in April I gave

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the Labs team the goal of increasing our testing throughput so that we could give

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you guys more juicy benchmarks in our reviews unfortunately the math was not

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in our favor you see the typical turnaround to troubleshoot Benchmark

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write film edit and QC our coverage of a new product is 5 to8 business days at

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about 5 minutes per test times three runs for consistency checks times

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however many products we want to compare times however many games or applications

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you guys want to see it is easy to run out of time now we could shorten each

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test but we' found that longer tests are more consistent from run to run and end

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up being more reflective of the real world experience of using the product so

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that's out and I guess we could work through the nights like a bunch of AD

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oral out Master students but come on guys we're not that young anymore

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automation with mark bench does help a lot but if our system hangs in the

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middle of the night which it happens sometimes we're right back where we

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started which leaves us with one real option building up more of our test

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benches and running our tests in parallel except as I already told you 8%

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difference in factorio 12% in

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csgo now when I signed the procurement authorization for 11 CPUs I knew that we

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were likely to find an outlier or two but then it turned out that this Rabbit

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Hole went way deeper than I could possibly have known like this deep

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about them at the link below now before you start sharpening your pitchforks and

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demanding that AMD's Executives be turned into Al paste or something it's

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worth noting that most of our chips were within a few percentage points of each

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other even in csgo at 1440p which was

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the test that saw the greatest overall spread also when we expand our

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comparison to include our full Suite of games that maximum difference Falls to

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around 2 and 1 12% far less outrageous

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so you don't really have to worry about Buddy in front of you in line getting a

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way better gaming experience for the same price but still too big big for us

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to buy any two random 7800x 3DS use them

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to test two different gpus in parallel and then say well these results should

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be comparable now the obvious conclusion

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at this point then is guys there's something wrong with your csgo test I

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think it's time to get good but the thing is there aren't a lot of variables

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here and that's by Design we used the same motherboard same memory same

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Windows drive and install we even tested

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using phase change thermal pads to ensure that our paste application wasn't

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an issue and we chucked our bench in the thermal chamber just for good measure we

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are very confident that our numbers are valid and we're going to have the process doc Linked In the video

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description if you want to have a look which is all finding good but doesn't

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answer the much bigger question of why

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do these CPUs vary so much in the first place AMD gave them the same model

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number and specifications AMD charges the same price so they should have the

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same performance right well back in the

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day that was true CPUs would run at

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their rated speed and if they didn't it meant they were either broken or they

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were about to be but thanks to a relatively recent Innovation called

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Dynamic frequency scaling that's no longer the case you see no two pieces of

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silicon are the same and whether it's through rolling improvements to

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manufacturing or just sheer blind luck you can end up with a processor that is

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capable of better than the advertised clock speed now in the old days you

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could unlock this extra performance manually through overclocking but

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nowadays processors just adjust their own speeds and they do it on the Fly

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based on a whole host of factors including user configurable power

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profiles and thermal limits AMD's approach is to allow the CPU to clock as

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high as it's able until the CPU die average reaches about 90° C at which

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point the clock will be dialed back until it reaches equilibrium sounds good

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right I mean why be bound by some artificial performance limiter when I

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got a golden chip that can go higher and

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I actually agree but for the folks who end up with a lesser chip can feel a

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little bit like missing out even if AMD is careful to only guarantee clock

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speeds that 100% of the chips can hit

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and as I mentioned before it's also very inconvenient for our parallel testing

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endeavors so what do we do testing lots of it

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after throwing cinch at our very first CPU we ran into our very first roadblock

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the numbers from run to run can be vastly different I am talking 300 point

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spreads on a single CPU run back to back

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what the heck right how on Earth are we supposed to narrow down which two CPUs

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are within 1% of each other if one CPU

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isn't within 1% of itself

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as it turns out software was the culprit and software is notoriously hard to

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account for have you ever opened up task manager right when you boot up your

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system there's no programs running nothing should be happening except wrong

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what was that here's the thing even when you're doing nothing your operating

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system is busy managing all the behind the-scenes work that keeps your system

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running like updating the weather widget synchronizing the clock with a trusted

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time server prepping the next thing it thinks you might installing updates and

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so much more and we don't really get to

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decide when that stuff happens which means that no one result can ever be

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taken as gospel truth we do have custom

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Windows images that are intentionally debloated to remove some startup

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processes to help with this but it only partially mitigates the issue and it

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introduces new ones like making our results slightly less representative of

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the typical user we feel this trade-off is worthwhile because it helps us to

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better isolate our variables in testing but it's not even enough to further

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mitigate the amount of work that Windows is doing in the background we can also

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increase a process's priority in cinch

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we went from seeing points varying in the hundreds down to the tens on the

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same CPU that's a big Improvement and enough to use cinebench for our binning

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process but we're not out of the woods yet you see with some tests it's not

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enough to use the same Hardware at the same process priority because the

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benchmarks themselves have built in

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inconsistencies Red Dead Redemption 2 for example simulates physics and AI

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behavior during a bench run that's a really good thing because if that stuff

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was canned our results would not be comparable to actually playing the game

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but the bad news is it means that sometimes Arthur loses his hat sometimes

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he doesn't sometimes the horse gets shot sometimes it doesn't

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which can impact our run-to-run consistency can we ever fully account

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for this unfortunately not but by running each test multiple times and

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then taking an average we can get a pretty good picture and we can bake that

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expectation of noise into our data analysis which finally happens now sorry

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for all the Preamble first up gaming for

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the sake of legibility we named each of our samples after a Pokémon why Pokémon

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I don't know cuz it seemed better than deadly diseases any who looking at the

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geometric mean of our gaming results we found a

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2.07% spread in average frames per second between the best performing and

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the worst performing CPUs and a 2.4 6%

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spread in our 1% lows this puts all but

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one of our CPU samples within three

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frames per second of each other which gives us confidence that we'll be able

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to find some close enough CPUs but but

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given that 2.46% isn't 1% it also tells us that we

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can't just pull any three chips at random nor can we simply look at the

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average returnal for instance is a benchmarker dream because a it's

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actually a good game that people might want to play and B it is a stunningly

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consistent Benchmark which is great for producing results that we can trust when

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we're comparing gpus but the real world

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is a lot messier than returnal and while

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most of our other games both at 1440p and 1080p showed a similar small level

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of variance in CPU performance in a couple of games notably Total War

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Warhammer 3 and cyber Punk we found larger variants in the 1% lows this

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indicates that as run these games are more CPU bottleneck which better reveals

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the deficiencies of our worst chips but as you're about to see not all CPU bound

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games are bound in the same ways we went

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into this process thinking ah CSG go

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what a classic CPU gaming Benchmark it's

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a shame that it's been replaced by CS2 and we came out of it thinking ah CS

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good ridds I mean on the one hand it

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does certainly separate the CPUs from each other and our slowest chip Corola

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was the slowest s in csgo but on the

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other hand the overall variance is so

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high and so different from the entire

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rest of our test Suite that it becomes almost an outlier data point having an

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outsized impact on our results and this

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could be for a number of reasons first csgo uses a game engine that is older

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than YouTube which has been useful over the years since it was originally built

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just for single core CPUs and it can make use of just about all the single

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threaded performance that you can give it but it also means that its

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performance requirements just aren't very similar to more modern games that

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are going to want to see a number of fast cores rather than just one or two

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second csgo itself is also old old

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enough that any modern gaming CPU can run it so fast that no professional

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Esports gamer even could tell the difference anyway and so fast that

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limitations in the software itself can start to rear their ugly heads which

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adds potential variables basically csgo

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is having its Quake three Arena moment after a long run it's time to drop it

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and when we reviewed the overall variance numbers without csgo it shows

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just how much of an outsized influence that it had on our results the new

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results show far less variance closing the spread to just 46% and 1.43% for the

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average and 1% lows respectively which is somewhat reassuring for you the

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consumer but still doesn't change that our runaway loser corsola is still a dud

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Corola consistently underperformed the rest of the chips by so much that when

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we remove it from our results our overall spread and performance goes from

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1.43% in our lows to

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86% that is a massive decrease so what

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the heck is wrong with this thing we don't know for sure but one guess is

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that the 3D V cach on this chip could be struggling some way because it fumbles

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pretty hard in our factorio test where most of the Benchmark can actually fit

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on that 3D V cache another possibility

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is that it could be the PCIe controller the part of the CPU that communicates

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with our PCIe lanes and consequently our GPU this idea comes from the fact that

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when it comes to productivity performance sure it's still ain't top of

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the class but it isn't flunking like it used to speaking of we actually found

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greater variance between our chips in our productivity tests which kind of

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makes sense since we no longer have the GPU getting in the way of raw CPU

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performance szip brought us a spread of around 3 to 4% for compression and

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decompression and blender hovers in the same realm along with our video and

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audio encoding Suites the biggest contributor to the size of the spread of

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our sample though is Lugia who takes up the bottom spot in pretty much every

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productivity benchmark since it wasn't so bad in gaming this

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leads us to believe that perhaps there's a problem with the integrated heat

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spreader but AMD has made that much more

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difficult to evaluate now that all of their CPUs just kind of run at the same

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temperature and then adjust their clock speeds to reach their thermal limit so

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across our small sample variance in performance is present but not egregious

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of course we aren't trying to quantify variants what we're trying to find is

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equivalence so how do we do that it turned out to be a bit tricky we ended

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up using ukian distance to determine which CPUs were the most similar

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unconventional but also kind of cool here's how it works first we scaled our

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data so that our five-digit cinebench scores don't overshadow those low

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flacking code numbers then we took those scaled numbers and treated each as a

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coordinate for a point in multi-dimensional space think about it

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kind of like this if we took a plane and chose two points those would each have

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an X and y-coordinate well the ukian

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distance is the distance between those two points the closer together the

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points are the more similar they are and this can be applied for points that

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exist in any dimension in our case a 12-dimensional space for productivity

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and the 19th dimension for gaming since we're weighing all of our tests as equal

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we can then do a bunch of comparisons to determine which CPUs are the most

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similar to one another from that four emerge as extremely comparable EV Mewtwo

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Raichu and Zapdos with Zapdos being the least equivalent so sorry bro just the

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other three they are outside of our tolerance in csgo but the issue is that

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the CPUs that did perform identically in that one game were not the tightest

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across the rest of the suite meaning that they can't really be trusted on

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games that you know you might actually be able to play in conclusion

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productivity saw these CPUs perform within roughly 24% of one another and in

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gaming we see a spread of 86% in the 1%

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lows and just. 1% in average frame rates

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now that's tight tight enough we figure that it will allow us to directly

00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:52.000
compare GPU results across our test benches wait Ben jez oh yeah you see

00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:58.519
where I'm going with this we found near identical CPUs but what about the other

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components do they vary time for another

00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.519
round of testing the main secondary

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performance contributors in your GPU test bench are going to be your

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motherboard and your RAM but since those still run at fixed clock speeds we're

00:16:09.839 --> 00:16:17.720
not expecting nearly as much variance with RAM for example you set the speeds

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in your BIOS and then it's either capable or it's not and your system is

00:16:20.319 --> 00:16:25.240
unstable and probably crashes all of our

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testing is done at the recommended RAM speed from AMD 6,000 megat transfers per

00:16:27.959 --> 00:16:32.600
second and if you want to learn even more about how we test our Hardware

00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:36.519
we've got a recent exclusive over on Floatplane.com where we have a

00:16:34.319 --> 00:16:40.319
featurelength deep dive looking at the improvements we've made to our testing

00:16:38.079 --> 00:16:46.240
processes anyway to validate our hypothesis we took one of our future

00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:49.680
test CPUs EV and threw it into both of

00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:53.600
our new parallel benches in gaming we

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landed on. 45% variance in the 1% lows

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and less than a tenth of a percent in average FPS that is more than acceptable

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and in productivity we ended up in the. 13% neighborhood that means in our

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upcoming GPU reviews performed on these three parallel benches we're going to

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consider our results to be accurate within plus or minus about.

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25% of course that doesn't mean that our

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results will be identical to your CPU or to other media and this is one of the

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big reasons that we have always encouraged our viewers to look at

00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:33.440
reviews from multiple Outlets whenever making a purchase decision oh before you

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ask by the way there does not appear to be any Foul Play from AMD with respect

00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:41.400
to review sample selection so you don't

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have to pick a reviewer for example that buys their own CPUs versus one that gets

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seated at least we don't think so we'd have to buy hundreds of CPUs to know for

00:17:48.320 --> 00:17:56.360
sure but it appears that the unit that was sent to us for a review which is

00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:58.640
Raichu Falls somewhere in the good but

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not exceptional range so I think we can put put that conspiracy theory to rest

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again another before you ask is yes

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driver updates operating system updates and new software that we add to our test

00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:16.080
Suite could change our CPU performance spread in the future and we're going to

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do our best to maintain our data Integrity by performing periodic what

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we're going to call equivalence checks because you guys have asked for Reliable

00:18:22.919 --> 00:18:31.480
trustworthy information and you deserve it which brings us to a big issue why is

00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:33.000
this task falling to random YouTubers I

00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:37.440
mean the automotive industry for instance has government bodies that are

00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:42.080
dedicated to verifying the performance of vehicles and ensuring that companies

00:18:39.679 --> 00:18:46.960
aren't cheating on their testing then they Dole out big fines when they

00:18:44.159 --> 00:18:54.159
inevitably do cheat on their testing with computer hardware there's no such

00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:57.600
oversight we and our peers are this thin

00:18:54.159 --> 00:19:00.080
open-mouth thumbnail line between you

00:18:57.600 --> 00:19:04.760
and getting ripped off and that's a big problem I mean for one thing we don't

00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:09.000
have access to the types of testing that large tech companies have and we don't

00:19:07.159 --> 00:19:14.039
operate at the kind of scale where we can say for sure if an observation is a

00:19:11.159 --> 00:19:18.799
fluke or if it's the result of conniving suits that are trying to save a quick

00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:22.799
Buck even buying 11 chips for this investigation that was a huge investment

00:19:21.080 --> 00:19:29.000
from our side and not the sort of thing that we can do with every single review

00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:32.760
unfortunately all I'm doing is Rand in right now I don't have a solution to

00:19:30.600 --> 00:19:37.960
this other than well we're going to keep trying gosh darn it but it just struck

00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:42.080
us as we worked on this project that the fact that these companies don't have to

00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:47.000
report things like estimated performance in a regulated and standardized fashion

00:19:44.679 --> 00:19:51.480
is kind of crazy especially if you consider the kind of money that they're

00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:57.880
asking for their most expensive CPUs so what's next well first is going

00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:03.679
to be going through the exact same rig remoral with however many 490s it takes

00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:05.799
to parallelize our CPU test platforms

00:20:03.679 --> 00:20:10.080
and then slowly but surely we're going to be improving our automations and

00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:15.559
increasing our test volume especially once we get the lab's website up and

00:20:11.600 --> 00:20:18.400
running but good things take time and we

00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:26.919
aren't going to rush a good thing especially I'm not going to rush this

00:20:21.520 --> 00:20:28.960
segue to our sponsor delete me your

00:20:26.919 --> 00:20:32.320
personal information sounds like it should stay personal right I mean it's

00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:35.799
right there in the name well data Brokers and other sketchy companies

00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:41.280
disagree so they're sharing your data online like it's a family style dinner

00:20:38.159 --> 00:20:42.600
eat eat your skin and bones is what it's

00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:46.039
what they're saying to each other thankfully delete me is here to crash

00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:50.480
the party they'll find out who's spilling your info and get it removed so

00:20:48.360 --> 00:20:54.640
that scammers can't use it to batter you with Robo calls and spam emails never

00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:59.159
mind that it can also lead to fraud or identity theft because delete me can

00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:03.880
mind that for you now what wiping out data held by hundreds of sites by

00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:07.159
yourself sounds borderline impossible which is why this whole time I've been

00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:11.200
trying to tell you that delete me can do it you don't have to their Nifty

00:21:09.280 --> 00:21:15.640
software and expert Squad can sweep it away in minutes not hours delete me

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averages over 2,000 pieces of personal data gone for a customer in their first

00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:22.559
two years yeah go on delete me get them

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and you should get on over to the link below and use code LTT for a sweet 20%

00:21:25.679 --> 00:21:31.679
off if you guys enjoyed this video why not check out our motherboard turbo nerd

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:38.760
Edition video where we went into what exactly are all those little things that

00:21:33.159 --> 00:21:38.760
look like cities and towns on the PCB
