WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.200 I actually did have a question for you that could be interesting on camera. A friend of mine had some kernel experience writing drivers for AMD. 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:11.760 Yeah, and he heard you say a little while ago that there's not enough contributors or 00:00:11.760 --> 00:00:15.520 you're having a hard time finding contributors and he wondered where to start to look into 00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:28.520 what he could do. So I think that probably came not so much from contributors as we have a hard time finding 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:34.160 We have a harder time finding the maintainers than we have to find the default. 00:00:34.160 --> 00:00:40.880 Yes, so the problem is there's a lot of programmers, a lot of them actually get paid to do Linux 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:49.440 kernel work, but it's much harder to find the kind of person who stays around for years 00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:56.000 and also when you're a maintainer, it's not just that you have to know coding, you have 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:01.560 to have enough of a background that people know you know coding, right? 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:11.720 So there has to be some mind knowledge about you and you can't come from nothing and the 00:01:11.720 --> 00:01:15.560 other thing is you have to be pretty good at communication too. 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:21.160 So that's why we are having, I think it's harder to find maintainers than it is to find 00:01:21.160 --> 00:01:33.840 people to code. I mean we have tons of developers who like doing the coding part and I think people are 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:37.400 kind of scared of taking the next step. 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:42.720 People think that it's harder or think that the expectations are necessarily higher than 00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:50.760 they, I don't think they are. The only thing you have to do is you have to step up, you have to have done enough that 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:56.200 people recognize your name, then you have to just step up and say hey, I'd like to help 00:01:56.200 --> 00:02:05.760 maintain this area and if you do that, the answer almost certainly is going to be yes. 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:10.360 We want people who help maintain an area. 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:16.360 So what's the first touch point? Is it that you're going to be contributing and passing up the chain first? 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:19.480 Yeah, you do have to basically start. 00:02:19.480 --> 00:02:24.320 It's kind of like a lot of companies have this policy that you grow from within and 00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:29.600 that everybody starts at the bottom and it doesn't have to be bottom-bottom but you have 00:02:29.600 --> 00:02:36.560 to start out being a programmer that writes code or not necessarily even code. 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:42.120 Documentation is the exact same as true of documentation, tests and stuff like that. 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:47.360 We have maintainers for all of those areas but you have to kind of show, you can't just 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:50.800 say show up and say hey, I'd like to help. 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:57.680 What you have to do is you write some code so that people get to know and then when they 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:06.160 know you, when you say hey, I'd like to help maintain and help carry like spread the burden 00:03:06.160 --> 00:03:12.200 around of maintenance. I know I'm the one who put you guys here. 00:03:12.200 --> 00:03:17.840 We have a ton of people who I'm sure would rather have to have more people reviewing 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:24.120 patches, help when people go on vacations. 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:29.640 So when you say that you have to say how shy they are, they're all hovering. 00:03:29.640 --> 00:03:34.360 I just spent the last two hours with you though so I can't come from nothing. 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:38.640 Do you mean with the Linux project specifically or with just coding in general? 00:03:38.640 --> 00:03:42.440 I think you need to come into it coding into Linux. 00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:48.040 I mean yes, you probably have experience from other sources to other projects. 00:03:48.040 --> 00:03:53.320 Maybe you work in commercial but in order to get that name recognition where people 00:03:53.320 --> 00:04:00.320 know who you are because that's, I think like personal trust is a big deal in open source. 00:04:00.320 --> 00:04:06.640 It's inside companies, it's like you got hired, you're working at the same company so we trust 00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:11.200 you kind of thing. You are part of the team now because our manager put you on the team. 00:04:11.200 --> 00:04:17.200 You've gone through the process, we've verified. And in open source, that's not how it works. 00:04:17.200 --> 00:04:22.680 In open source it's like I trust you because I've seen you around, it doesn't necessarily 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:30.240 take very long, there are maintainers, I mean they've been around for ages now but there 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:36.440 are maintainers who became maintainers in a couple of months because they just, they 00:04:36.440 --> 00:04:42.320 showed that hey, they know what they're doing, they were being helpful and doing the right 00:04:42.320 --> 00:04:49.040 things and then they said hey, you want to help and everybody said yes please, come on. 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:58.680 So it's actually not, well, I don't know, I say it's not that hard but I only see the 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:04.480 other side of it so I may not see all the people who struggled and never put it in. 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.080 So getting your foot in the door is like showing up and communicating with people who are on 00:05:08.080 --> 00:05:12.280 the project, seeing where you can lend a hand, reviewing, documentation. 00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:20.240 Reviewing and you do want to send passions to. So you want, that's probably the first thing to do, even before you start reviewing because 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:26.720 in order for people to know that your reviews are worthwhile, they need to kind of know 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:35.880 that your code is played by the person. So find the, I mean, that's one of the advantages there and there are tons of different areas. 00:05:35.880 --> 00:05:44.000 Find the device or the architecture or whatever that you are interested in, sometimes it could 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:51.000 be files, it could be encryption, it could be whatever, there's a lot of code and find 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:56.680 something that you care about and that you think you know something about and that you 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:03.520 can see something or prove and you find something you don't like, fix it, send a patch, communicate 00:06:03.520 --> 00:06:08.440 with the maintainer, the existing maintainer of that problem and that's how you kind of 00:06:08.440 --> 00:06:11.640 get the communication guide. 00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:14.640 Find something you've got a real itch for, right? Yeah, yeah, cool. 00:06:14.640 --> 00:06:20.480 And I mean, it doesn't have, I mean the kernel may be a high profile project and one of the 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:25.560 biggest ones around there but let's be honest, there's thousands of open source projects 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:31.560 and kernels are kind of, I think kernels are the most interesting ones but you don't 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.560 have to do kernels. Yeah. Right. 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:43.640 Realistically, we do have 35 years of code, so quite often if there's something new that 00:06:43.640 --> 00:06:50.360 meets new code, it's often like new hardware support, hmm, right, so that's, you mentioned 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:56.120 people as a driver, a writer, you get to say AMD, yeah, so that's, that's quite often 00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:00.600 how people get into kernel maintenance because that's where they're, there's always, they 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:06.120 cut their teeth and that kind of thing and they, they, they, they maybe, most kernel 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:11.120 developers these days are actually paid by companies to be kernel developers. 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:18.520 Interesting. But sometimes they became kernel developers first and then proved their skills and at 00:07:18.520 --> 00:07:21.880 that point companies came in and said, hey, we'll pay you to do that. 00:07:21.880 --> 00:07:25.640 But sometimes it goes the other way where, where they're literally paid by companies 00:07:25.640 --> 00:07:31.760 to do something and then they, they enjoy it and they become kernel developers and they're 00:07:31.760 --> 00:07:34.880 still paid by companies, they're, they're part of the community. 00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:39.480 Yeah. That's great. Well, thanks so much, it's really nice to meet you. 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:47.520 Just gonna excuse myself for a minute, I gotta go shoot some stuff. If I catch you on the way out, I'd love to say bye but if not, if not, again, hey. 00:07:47.520 --> 00:07:51.280 This was so great. It seemed to work. Oh. 00:07:51.280 --> 00:07:54.280 Let's see how it works. Oh, in the end. I have no doubt. 00:07:54.280 --> 00:07:58.320 If you edit it to be something crap, I will hate you for it. 00:07:58.320 --> 00:08:02.000 Well you heard it here first. No pressure. No pressure. 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.960 I don't want to monopolize your time but thank you for being like such a stalwart open source person. 00:08:05.960 --> 00:08:11.040 I built my career writing about 3D printers so open source communities are so important 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.320 to me and you're such a symbol in that. 00:08:15.320 --> 00:08:24.000 I get way too much credit. I mean that's the thing, there's literally millions of us and I just get all the credit. 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.000 Yeah. Thank you. Hello. 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:31.000 Can you, can you pretend we're taking a picture here? Take a screenshot from him. 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.000 I'm friendly, it's more than pretend. Alright. 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.000 One, two, three, cheese. Cheese. Beautiful. 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.000 There we go. Alright. How about that? 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:42.000 Thank you. 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Oh my God, the line got bigger. Oh my goodness. 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Bye bye. Would you be opposed to one of these for the camera? 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:56.000 Yeah. Like you did in the video? It's all good. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:59.000 It's all good. It's all good. Thank you. 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:06.000 Oh, nice to meet you. I'm James. I'm not that important but I'll also take a screenshot. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.000 We'll do the most viewed internal videos. Yes, please. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:13.000 Alright. I'm sure that one does. We're good? 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:17.000 That's Sony Alpha. It's going to take pictures too. We're going to take an actual picture, right? 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.000 Got it. Thank you for giving me a hug. 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.000 They don't trust your camera work. That's what I'd say about you. 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.000 Can I ask you a question? Sure. What's your most embarrassing tech story? 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:34.000 If you have one? I mean, I think the one, it's not embarrassing anymore because I've told it so many times 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:38.000 but it's the one where do you, you know, you weren't here when they were filming it. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:47.000 No. It is the one where I deleted my OS install by auto-dialing my hard disk. 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:58.000 That was embarrassing at the time. That was like a moment where I really said, okay, that's a lot of hours wasted because 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:04.000 I had made it too easy to treat my hard disk as if it was a moda. 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:12.000 But that's actually the point where I ended up using Linux full-time before I was dual-booting 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:20.000 and I destroyed the right partitions so that the Linux partitions stayed around. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.000 But I've made a lot of stupid things. 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.000 I try to forget the embarrassing part. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000 Anyone? I'll get a screenshot picture. 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.000 Yeah, I'll get a screenshot picture. It's really cool to meet you. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.000 All right. Now I'm taking an extra nice one. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:43.000 You're way too old. Yeah, I'm just a lot of hours wasted. 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000 I know. Are you even crouching everything? Yeah, you're doing a good job. 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.000 You want to take your tube here? Why not? Sure. 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:57.000 Wow. Eli's in the way. Sorry, I was grabbing something. 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Eli photo bomb. He wants me in every photo. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:03.000 I was cleaning up the set. I'm sorry, I just... 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.000 I'm trying to do my job here, Sammy. I'm trying to do my job. 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.000 Do you want a screenshot picture? Sure, we'll get a picture. That's all good. 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:13.000 You were always on the other camera. I know I was. 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:16.000 All right, perfect. There we go. Now we got one together though. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.000 So thank you so much. You find it weird when you ask for photos? 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:23.000 Because I know when Linus got more popular, he found it weird. 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:27.000 Yes and no. It is weird because it is weird. 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:32.000 But I'm used to it. Because when I go to conferences, it happens all the time. 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:35.000 It happens to the point where it's a problem. 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.000 Now, when I give a talk, they literally... 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:45.000 They take me off stage after the talk immediately and rush me out of the audience. 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:49.000 Because what has happened a couple of times before they did that, 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:54.000 is that you have literally hundreds of people who run up and try to get on an autograph 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:01.000 and try to get a selfie. And it completely destroys the next talk when you had a big auditorium 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.000 where a third of the people just walked away. 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:10.000 So now when I go to conferences, it's kind of strange. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:13.000 I do a talk and then they rush me off stage 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:17.000 and I try to avoid the whole craziness. 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.000 You talk to Linus about it. I think Linus has the same problems. 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.000 Yeah, sort of out of Linus. 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:29.000 I understand. Yeah, no, it feels bad because it feels very impolite. 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:37.000 But at the same time, it doesn't work if you just stay around and give autographs 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:44.000 and have hundreds of people who want... I've been in that situation where you literally have a line of people taking photos. 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.000 Can you download the formal sign? 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.000 Many, many years ago, I forget. 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:59.000 Somewhere in Japan, it probably was Tokyo just because it's mostly Tokyo. 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.000 We did... 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Oh, it was actually when I wrote the book with David Diamond. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.000 We had a book tour afterwards. 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.000 And then as part of the book tour, we would have book signings. 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:22.000 And then people would A, bring the book, but they would also bring in things that I felt bad about signing. 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:25.000 They had nice leather jackets. 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:30.000 And my signature is not like a nice signature. 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:35.000 So it was like, I'm defacing this thing. 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.000 Yeah, exactly. 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:43.000 And some things are really hard to sign. People bring in... 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000 Oh, well, it's not there anymore. The tux penguin. 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:51.000 They exist as plush toys. 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.000 And then they ask me to sign it, which kind of makes sense. 00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:00.000 They brought something that is Linux related, where a signature would make sense. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 It's completely impossible to sign on those things. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.000 You basically can't try it. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:13.000 No, but it's one of those things where you say, 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:20.000 I understand what you want and it makes sense, but it doesn't work in this thing. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.000 You can try to hold it out so that it's stretched very tight, 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:29.000 but even then the signature just ends up being even more scribble than it is. 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:33.000 You can recognize a lot. I know shows and stuff. 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:36.000 You're surrounded with people that will know you and what you do, 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.000 because it's like-minded individuals, I guess. 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:44.000 But on the street... It's almost the only time I get recognized at conferences. 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:47.000 I don't have... I'm not like you or Linus. 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:51.000 My face is in plastered on YouTube constantly. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:55.000 So... It happens today, you'll get stuff. 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.000 It happens that I get recognized, but it's fairly rare. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.000 It does... I mean... 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:07.000 Back when we used to have a fries, 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:10.000 I don't know if fries was ever a thing in Canada. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:15.000 Oh, fries electronics? No, it was never. But I would actually get... 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.000 I would go there and buy computer parts. 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:24.000 And then because you are in an area with a much higher concentration of geeks than normal, 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.000 then occasionally people would come up and say, 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:33.000 I'm not that well known. And it happens occasionally, but no, I'm not that well known. 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:38.000 I think a lot of people... More people know my name than really have a... 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:43.000 And a lot of the pictures of me are old anyway, right? 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:48.000 I think... I still see people, like... 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:53.000 I mean... Talking about signing things, sometimes they bring, like, 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:57.000 old pictures from my college days. And hey, I'm 55 years old. 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:00.000 My college days were some time ago, right? 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.000 I look different now, and I like shirtless and drinking a beer. 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.000 And they ask me to sign that picture, right? 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.000 So... Anyway... 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Do you have a favorite with the sort of project of your own? It could be two, but just out of interest? 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.000 No, I... No, I... 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:26.000 It's like... I have the toy project that I started. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.000 The subsurface, which is the dive log thing. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.000 And the other toy project that I started. Git, right? That I follow. 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:39.000 Yeah. So I follow those just because of... 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.000 I mean, but they're not there. You're invested. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:48.000 Yeah. Do you want your phone or do you want me to take the screen cap for you? 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.000 I mean, I can get it on my... We'll get one of both. We'll get one on the phone. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.000 Thank you. My brother's going to be so jealous. 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000 Long times off for a developer. Yeah, that's right. 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.000 I was looking... Where were we? Oh, no. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.000 Look at this camera. Don't look at me. Don't look at me. 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.000 I think it was. 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:20.000 Thank you so much. I think Pankrat's there, but I don't know where he went. 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.000 Yeah, I don't know. Everyone's saying to my brother. I'm saying to my brother that I don't think I'll be... 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Maybe we're done. Yeah, two of the biggest guys I've wanted to meet you were out of office today. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.000 So, Luke is... That's too bad. 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:40.000 Yeah. I might never meet a person who has had a bigger impact on the world. 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Yeah. We're really shocking as you go today. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.000 I mean, like, it's just... That's just embarrassing. 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:54.000 Right. It's... Whether it was intentional or not is what ended up happening, right? 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.000 Yeah, but as I... 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:04.000 I get way too much credit. Like, I get credit for Git, and I did Git... 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.000 I did Git for six months. 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:10.000 But it was the right six months. 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.000 It was... And the design I'm proud of, but at the same time, it's like... 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.000 All of the infrastructure that made Git so useful to millions of people 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.000 was built up by others. I think also you've imparted, like, a philosophy 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.000 behind all of your work that's inspired so many people, right? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.000 And, like, that's why these projects continue to work. 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.000 But, I mean, there's a lot of other open source people. 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:42.000 Right. Right person, right time, right project. 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.000 And I've been doing it for 35 years. So that's part of it, right? 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:51.000 Yeah. But it's only become increasingly important as the world has continued to... 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:54.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.000 Well... What would that bring you? Would you like to ask one more? 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.000 Sure. I'm curious. What I don't know about Linux Control Library, 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:05.000 but I've noticed that you guys have a very strict philosophy 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.000 about not breaking user space. Is that correct? That's correct for the kernel. 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.000 I wish it was correct for most other open source projects 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.000 because I think the kernel is almost unique in that respect. 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:23.000 It's the one black and white rule that I impose 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:29.000 on maintainers and developers is you don't break users 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:38.000 because users are the reason for any software project. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:44.000 Yeah. There's a software project that says, hey, we're going to make a new and improved version, 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:49.000 but in the process we will break all the old programs that relied on this, 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.000 which a lot of libraries do, and I hate it. 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:59.000 I don't understand. They're kind of missing the whole point of being a software project as far as I'm concerned. 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:06.000 So when it comes to the kernel, the major rule is you do not break users. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:11.000 It doesn't mean that you can make changes that break some test program or something like that, 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:15.000 but if it breaks the user experience, it's a bug. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.000 So where's the line for that? There is no. 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.000 I mean, the line is somebody complains and says, 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:28.000 hey, my program doesn't work anymore. It turns out people don't often realize that there's that line. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:34.000 So we had an issue where we knowingly said, hey, 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.000 we'll skip this because nobody cares, right? 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.000 And we simplified and cleaned up some code. 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:47.000 It was, I think it was something pretty obscure, 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:54.000 like our interface to the local descriptor tables for the 386 segmentation, 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:59.000 which we supported for odd programs, but we thought nobody cared, right? 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.000 And it broke wine, right? 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:11.000 And the gaming people cared, but the gaming people were apparently far enough from the kernel community 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:16.000 that they had all these strange workarounds in wine for something that we broke, 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.000 and nobody ever even told me. 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:25.000 And when people told me, it was like, of course we'll undo that. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:30.000 That was a bug. I mean, we broke your system. 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:35.000 And it was like, it was no work at all. 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.000 And I forget how long it had been going on, 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:45.000 but I think it had been going on for a year before people just told me that, hey, this broke. 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.000 And I was like, yeah, you could just have told me immediately. 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:53.000 And not gone through all this pain, right? 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:58.000 So sometimes it's, people get too used to other projects 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:04.000 breaking their users. And the kernel, we really have this hard rule that we don't. 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:10.000 I mean, it is a hard rule at the same time we have had situations where 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.000 there was something that was a huge security issue 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.000 and we just had to fix it, right? 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:22.000 And somebody relied on this huge honking hole that was just, 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.000 we couldn't have that hole. 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:28.000 So it's happened a handful of times. 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:33.000 The thing that happens more commonly is that something breaks 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:39.000 and people who it broke for stay on some old kernel 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:44.000 for years and don't realize that the new kernel broke it 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000 and we don't realize because there's no communication. 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:53.000 And in the meantime, people start relying on the new behavior. 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:57.000 And then two or three years later, they come back and say, 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:04.000 hey, now our stuff doesn't work. And I'm like, I can't undo it anymore 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.000 because there are now more people who rely on the fix 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:15.000 that we did, right? And if, I mean, it's rare, but that kind of thing happens 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:21.000 and that we, yeah, no. But I am happy to say it is really very rare 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.000 because people know that this is the rule and people are careful about making changes 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.000 that they think might break something. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:31.000 It's funny. You mentioned libraries. You caught exactly what I was going for. 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:34.000 And I'm very interested in what seems to be happening 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.000 as Linux is going more towards a consumer basis 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:43.000 with companies like Valve using it and where developers, at least in the gaming space, 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:48.000 seem to be relying a lot more on not really emulation 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:51.000 but on translation layers instead of just using the libraries 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.000 that exist for Linux. And I think it's interesting that nothing's popped up 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.000 that's more stable when there's that background philosophy. I mean, there you have a separate issue 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.000 that they're basically emulating Windows programs. 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.000 And Windows has largely always had the we don't break user space. 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:12.000 I think it was one of the reasons why they were so successful 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.000 in the 19-Compatibility layers. 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:20.000 I mean, it was ugly and it caused a lot of problems 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:26.000 for Microsoft, obviously. But when all your programs, our commercial programs, 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.000 you cannot break them, right? 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:35.000 And in the open source community, it's much easier 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.000 because people will say, hey, just recompile, 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:41.000 which I think is a completely bogus argument 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.000 because normal users do not recompile, right? 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:50.000 But there is this kind of history in certain circles, 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.000 certainly of saying that recompiling is okay. 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:59.000 So when you have the gaming community and you have emulation, 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.000 the libraries they are emulating are stable 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.000 because of where they came from, right? 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.000 And then we just have to make sure 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:14.000 that the target is stable enough that we don't break their emulation, right? 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Anyway, I think it's one last person. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.000 Thank you so much. Hello, nice to meet you. 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:27.000 We ran here through the rain. Yeah, I did. Perfect. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.000 Thank you. Wow, what a great video. 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.000 Make sure to leave a like so I know you guys enjoy this video and see you later.