Have you ever done this? Recommended a product to someone? Only for them to come back and tell you
the whole thing was a nightmare? It is the worst feeling.
It's even worse when you recommended that same product to, I don't know, a few million other people.
So when this email hit my inbox, I was freaking out.
Not only does Buddy say he's got a broken laptop, which, I mean, that happens from time to time.
DOA happens. But then he goes into his awful experience
with the framework's customer support. Now, my first instinct was to run to my computer
and send an email to the CEO demanding that he helped this customer.
But then I thought, if one person is having this problem,
there could be hundreds or even thousands. And if something's rotten over at framework,
putting a band-aid on this one complaint isn't going to solve it.
So I took matters into my own hands, or rather someone else's hands,
deploying a crack team to go undercover and secret shop framework.
And spoiler alert, things didn't get off to a perfect start
with one of our two machines arriving with a factory defect, which I guess is good
because it gives us an opportunity to put their customer service to the test.
The stakes really couldn't be higher here. As some of you may remember from my investment disclosure,
I said that if framework doesn't uphold the promises and commitments they made to me and our community,
my breakup with them will be swift, absolute, and in public.
Let's start this off by taking a closer look at the email
that kicked off this whole investigation. After Seth received his DIY framework 13
and installed his own RAM and SSD, he was having issues getting it to post.
He reached out to support and was frustrated to say the least
when it took seven days to receive a response that wasn't automated and adding insult to injury,
they asked him to try troubleshooting steps that he already said he tried.
First thought then, seven days is a really long time
to sit there with a fancy new, not to mention expensive paperweight,
but hopefully it's an outlier.
To find out, we attempted to recreate his situation by ordering the exact same laptop
opting to bring our own RAM and SSD. But since one laptop, it's not a very large sample size,
we decided to double it, placing a separate order several months later for a prebuilt Framework 16.
Fulfillment for both of them was what I would describe as solid.
We ordered the DIY 13 way back in March, six days later, landed on our doorstep.
Not bad, considering it came from the other side of the world. As for the Framework 16, same story, except in July,
and it arrived on a different doorstep. We wanted to make sure that if we had to open support tickets
for both machines, that they would not be coming from the same person or from the same address.
Now we'll get to supporting a bit, but first, one of Framework's main attractions
is that they provide resources that assist the user with repairs and the maintenance of their device.
So, rather than just have me build the DIY edition,
again, we recruited Natalie from our LTT Store team.
She knows enough about tech to be interested in it, but hasn't spent literal days with her head
inside a computer. Let's see how she did. All right, what is this?
Cool, okay, oh wow, stickers. It's actually pretty enjoyable watching people's
real, not overblown YouTuber reaction. Whoa, stickers, wow, I can't believe.
This is what a normal person looks like when they're reacting to stickers.
You can tell she's being like super careful with everything. Yeah, but that's the way that a real customer would be.
100%. People often get after me about the way that I'm like, yeah, I don't know, I'll be okay.
Yeah, someone also pick up these boxes. A lot of the time it is me after the shoot,
but yeah, I like the quick pace, you know? 100%.
She likes to work in computer at the end.
Packaging is not that great to open.
Oh, sick burn on the packaging. I do like this paper, very,
I don't know how protective it is, but very nice and clean.
I gave her basically nothing going into this. Cool.
I told her that you're building a laptop, you can use as many guides as you would like,
which is from Frameworks website. That's pretty cool. This is representative of pretty much a worst case scenario
in terms of how informed she would be, because if she'd actually placed the order herself,
she would have maybe read the product page, but she's going an even fresher.
Yeah, which is important to keep in mind. She's under a lot of pressure doing something brand new
for her and something she's never done and trying to be camera presentable.
So please like the video and leave a nice comment for Natalie, because she did great in all honesty.
Yeah, she's our prince.
She's going in fresh. Oh, Bel Air.
All right. Set up, upgrade and repair guides, view all guides.
So they had a QR code that she was able to scan. Let's start with step one, yes.
Unbox your Framework laptop, don't power it on just yet.
You'll need to install some modules. I will open it from the packaging first then.
Framework laptop, wow.
So excited, Natalie.
Locate the Framework screwdriver in the package underneath, yep.
It's the only tool you'll need to assemble
the Framework laptop DIY edition. Okay, let's see if that's true.
That is pretty cool that you only need one tool to build it.
And they give it to you. And this is actually where I noticed the first issue
with Framework's guides here. It had the QR code in the box and she scanned it
and it took her to that website there. It didn't take her to the direct link for her specific SKU.
I think that's something they could improve. Yes.
So she has the AMD version. Yes. Step four, insert the DDR5 memory module.
So you lift open the flap, there's two slots.
It's cool that they have videos in the guide. Not just pictures, that's sick.
Yeah, according to the video. And one thing I did confirm is the QR codes
on the individual items themselves do take you to like those specific instructions.
So for the RAM or whatever. Right, so everything else was right.
Except the very first one. Which is the one that they shove in your face when you open it.
There we go, first RAM stick.
Doesn't look like she got it in quite. A little more in might help.
I do think that video could be better. I think they could show that you have to
like slide it in a little harder. One thing I think that's tough about the video too
is that like overlay of like the back 10, forward 10 and play
stays open in that tiny window and it darkens the whole screen.
So it's like a little annoying. You can see her several times.
She tries to like tap away so that it like goes away.
And then there's the click. Okay, she gets it.
Yep. Nice. Using the T5 bit in the frame.
Oh, I need my handy tool.
Unscrew the fastener. She works for Creator Warehouse.
Natalie, you can say screwdriver. It's not a competing product.
Yet. Do you think that screwdriver is better than LTT stores?
How dare you? Oh, the LTT screwdriver all the way.
Yeah, she knows what's up. I was just asking you. She knows what's up.
It was a non-bias question. Trader. I...
Speaking of bias actually, this is probably a good time to ask like
how I can evaluate something like framework when I've invested in them.
Oh, how can you fairly evaluate something like framework
when you have invested in them? Elijah, what's your problem?
You manage the project. You know that I didn't do anything but green light it
and film it. Well, and add this super awkward interaction.
This is a really awkward way of telling them. Yeah.
I added this part. I thought it was funny.
That is not magnetic. Can I hold the screw in?
Yeah, what is this? Throw shade.
All right, step five done. There you go.
Take that framework. I would honestly call those like the easiest steps
of a laptop because you can do that with even some pre-builds already.
Well, the challenge is getting that thing open.
Sure. In a lot of cases. Yeah, it's really easy when it's easy to open up the machine.
Install the touchpad cable. Assuming it's...
this. Well, the picture, the picture doesn't really match.
That's a really good point. Make sure the touchpad side of the touchpad cable
is fully inserted here.
So this is one of those things where it comes inserted already.
But they actually give a step eight just in case. Right.
Make sure you double check this. Yeah, it'd be nice if they said it is pre-attached.
Yeah. But it could come loose in shipping. Tell me why.
Yeah, so it does say in the red there. The cable should be inserted far enough.
Yeah, but it doesn't say why I'm checking it. Yeah.
Like occasionally these come loose in shipping due to thermal expansion and contract.
Like tell me why I'm doing something. Yeah.
Educate me. There you go. Nice.
Good job, Natalie. Line the corners of the bezel to the display and place it down.
The bezel is attached by magnets and should easily click into place.
Sometimes. Sometimes the display cable can kind of
not cable manage perfectly. Oh no, that's going to happen, isn't it?
You're going to find out very quickly. Oh good.
That does not sound great.
Oh, she didn't screw on the top yet. No, she wasn't supposed to.
The instructions did not tell her to screw on the top.
The instructions ask to open the hinge 180 degrees
and put the bezel on. She followed that.
Yeah, so she didn't have it quite aligned yet. Yep.
Let's try this one again. So you can kind of see some of those cables there.
Yep. Just leave by magnets. Okay.
That is something that framework could improve. Yep.
It would be nice if they had pictures of what correctly seated cables looked like.
Yes. Because I've actually run into it before
where I routed it across the wrong thing
and that made it worse, not better. So she's now like double checking everything.
She's like worried about her input cover. She was worried about all of this.
Interesting. There's a lot of comments on these.
Do the comments outline some of the issues
that we've encountered already? There was someone in the comments that helped,
that would have helped solve this issue. That crunching, we'll find out in a little bit,
was actually due to how the screws,
because they're captive, fell underneath the laptop
and the hinge catches it when it tries to close.
Got it. And so it's the bezel related
because you have to lay it down for the bezel. Yeah, but it's caught on the screws.
Yeah. But the comments are not that obvious.
Yeah. She even mentioned, she's like,
do I have to go in the comments? Do I go to the comments?
There's no way I go to the comments. There's no way you have to go to the comments
for instructions. There's no way I have to go to the comments.
Oh, Natalie. So she doesn't. So she doesn't.
She doesn't. Framework needs to go into those comments.
Mine for nuggets of gold. Yeah.
And nugget them. Oh, this was back when I had my horrible haircut.
Oh, God. Man, that's gross. Why'd you show that on camera?
Her infection. What? It was just her there.
Now she's got a staff infection.
So you can see the screw there caught on the hinge.
That's what I had to do. I had to turn it upside down. So the gravity took the fasteners back down.
Yeah. Then I could close it. Yeah.
And no crunch.
And then this is where I tell her in the comments,
someone points out that the fasteners will get in the way.
Yeah. So this is actually where now it tells you to keep going
and screw the fasteners back in. I think this step should honestly come first.
Yeah. But they don't want the screen to be closed
because without the bezel, you know, it doesn't add all the protection and everything.
Yeah. That is a big wall of text for the expansion cards.
But I understand why. I didn't even know this when I did my unboxing.
But the AMD version specifically has certain modules
that work best in certain spots. Mm-hmm.
Modular IO. It's pretty cool. It's kind of cool.
It's pretty sick. Open the lid and press the power button.
All right, this is the moment of truth. Here we go.
Where's my top-down view? There we go. Note that your first boot will take a while before the logo.
That's a really good thing for them to point out,
especially modern AMD platforms. They take a hot minute for memory training on the first boot.
Oh, yeah. And there you go. There's some intricate parts that are a little bit difficult
to kind of grasp at first. Obviously with the screw issue,
we didn't know until we looked at the comments.
But overall, it's kind of a pretty fun experience building our own laptop.
Do you think that you would save the personal
between $100 to $200 to do this experience again?
This is the moment of truth. I think so, yes.
She thinks so, yes, even after some struggles. It's worth the savings for a hundred bucks,
a couple hundred bucks off the laptop. The more of a savvy shopper you are on your RAM
and on your storage, the more you can potentially save,
because I gotta tell you, when we did the framework factory tour
and I discovered that the DIY ones actually get fully assembled into a working machine
before being taken back apart. Yeah.
And then sold as a DIY. It's not labor savings.
Yeah. It's not paying a markup on those additional components.
100%. The touchpad's working. Perfect.
That's good. Oh, okay. This is the camera and this is the audio
that you're hearing from this framework laptop mic.
Hopefully everything sounds good. Sounds good, Natalie.
Good job, Natalie. Thank you. She put the stickers on.
Nice. Cool. This is actually pretty symmetrical with the stickers.
I'm very proud of that. I mean, I'm pretty proud of the laptop too.
I'm trying to include that editor to make sure that part's in there at the end.
So after this, we did a full check just to make sure everything did fully work
and it arrived to us in 100% working condition. Excellent.
Which means that if we want to recreate Seth's issue,
we're gonna have to do some work. He said his display wasn't turning on
and the LEDs inside his chassis were giving him three different error codes.
But we couldn't find any reference to any of those codes on Framework's website.
So either Framework hasn't published them yet
or it's possible Seth misinterpreted them.
Either way, we won't be able to recreate his exact situation that he had.
The closest thing that I could come up with,
I took a knife to the display cable and cut it until it didn't turn on anymore.
It worked. Or it didn't work.
And then meanwhile, we asked Alex to unbox the 16.
Look at his face. That's a man who laptops. He does laptop.
He seriously laptops. Okay, this is their config,
which explains why we were able to get it in a week, which is absolutely fantastic.
That's about what you expect and especially given it's Canada.
Went right into hosting mode. I just asked him to open it and check it
and he was like hosting. I was like, this is great. This is great.
It's almost like he's been doing it for seven years, I think.
So wait, we wanted a pre-built config here?
This should have been pre-built. Wait.
I'm not sure why. Did we order a pre-built?
So this is where it gets confusing because we ordered a pre-built
and as someone who never ordered a framework before,
I expected it to come 100% built.
But because the framework 16 has the modular interface on top,
they make you put that together. Yes.
To make you know how to reconfigure it.
But as a user, I was very confused when I saw the keyboard on top.
I was like, well, huh? Do they mess up our order?
It does appear that it has everything that you need
minus the IO, but does it have a keyboard?
It does not. It does not. That's something that I normally expect on my laptops.
Are you supposed to have a keyboard installed in the pre-built?
No.
Man, that's so cool. That's still one of the, like, ah.
It's pretty cool. The one we're watching on right now has a numpad installed.
So the keyboard is shifted to the side and the spacers are both on the right.
You get to choose if your trackpad is centered here.
Yeah. Or centered on your space bar when you have the numpad over here.
That's a really nice little bit of customization that you can do.
We have confirmed that our pre-built is supposed to come without the keyboard installed.
That's a little bit questionable in my mind, but at the same time,
if you're buying a framework and not planning on configuring it,
just don't buy a framework by any other laptop that's not repairable.
That is a fair statement as well, though. That's a fair statement. Yeah.
Yep. The sales pitch for framework is the repairability,
the upgradeability, the customizability. If you aren't even willing to just put the magnetic keyboard on.
And it attaches real easy. So, like, it probably isn't the machine for you.
Yeah. And that's okay. Audio is a requirement.
I don't even know why this is a dongle. I should just have it attached to the machine.
Another fair criticism. I agree with that.
They gave it to us on the 13 and then took it away on the 16.
Oh, we've got Ethernet. Oh, look at how fancy it looks.
It's right see-through. Oh, never mind. I don't like that as much anymore.
It does not fit within the chassis.
I actually, I have a bone to pick.
I don't like that because me being stupid,
I will drop it in my bag and one day,
I will go with that end first and I will destroy it.
It should have been flush. The way that I think of it, it's a Wi-Fi first device.
Like many other mobile devices. This is a great little USB-C, two and a half gig dongle.
That's pretty cool. At a good price, very compact, compatible with anything.
Totally understand the critique. It will not break off easily though.
Thank you for destroying our capture.
So the Ethernet doesn't break very well, but it will break the other modules.
Oh, shoot. The system locked up. Hold on, hold on.
We'll turn it back on. We're just going to shut it down and turn it back on.
Did I break the computer? Can you just make sure this still works?
Hey! Thank goodness.
And your two and a half gigs still works as well.
Nice. Anyway, the point is that if you do put it in your bag
with this thing in, is it the most elegant thing ever?
Absolutely not. I wish they had one of the little hinge-y style ones
or something. But will it like immediately break?
No. You just might have to reboot your computer.
All right. It's now plugged in. Let's try turning it on again.
Yay. Input module connector board not detected.
Uh-oh. Is that supposed to be installed for a pre-built?
The input module connector board? Yes.
Neat. So it goes in double checks.
It just needed a little click. It's possible during shipping.
30 seconds for someone who is so far above the average
in terms of their technical knowledge and experience with laptops.
Like Alex is the 1%.
Yeah. If something takes him 30 seconds, it's going to take my mom 30 minutes to figure out.
For laptop repair. My mom's good at lots of things.
Yep. Graphics all fantastic. If here's that framework has done everything correctly.
Finally, let's just confirm that the webcam is working.
Also, is this microphone?
Okay. The microphone switch works.
Yep. As far as laptop that has arrived correctly,
this one passes. So then that seems like a W.
Well, Alex didn't quite check everything.
Unfortunately, there was actually an issue with our numpad in the top left region.
The top left region of the numpad. What does that even mean?
It was several keys and it was inconsistent.
So we tried receding the module on both sides. We tried taking it out, doing a whole bunch of configuration.
And ultimately we couldn't get it working even after updating Windows, drivers and BIOS.
So we had to open another support ticket. And hand off to Elijah to give you the results from the DIY 13.
I opened the ticket explaining what my issue was
as well as some basic troubleshooting steps that I had already taken.
The idea here was to see that if they would ask me
to repeat my work, just like they did with Seth. 24 hours later, framework responded
with some follow-up steps and questions to help figure this problem out further.
After answering them and responding back to those questions,
54 minutes later, they followed up one more time.
I was honestly pretty impressed that they got back to me so quickly.
And then we ran into the same issue Seth was having. They did ask me to repeat a step
that I had told them I did in my first email. And as an end user, that's really frustrating
to have to repeat yourself. But as someone who did work in tech support
helping people fix their tech issues in the past,
I can't count the number of times that I have asked someone
to reboot a computer that they said they have
only to check their task manager and see that it's been up for three years.
In my personal opinion, I think them asking me to try that
is totally fine, especially since this is their first time
asking me to try it. But if we dive deeper into Seth's case a little bit later,
you'll see that's not what happened to him. For my machine here, I had one more back and forth session
and then framework came to the conclusion that we needed a new display kit.
And if you remove the days I was on vacation and the weekends where I wasn't working,
it took the framework support team three days
to reach that result, which is honestly pretty solid.
My new display kit arrived in six days.
And as you can see, it works. It took about 15 minutes to swap it out
using framework's guide that they both emailed us
in that support chain and then included in the box
with the screen. Repairable laptops for the win.
That's awesome. As for our framework 16,
that's where everything falls apart. They killed it again.
Who am I kidding? If you take out the weekends where I wasn't able to respond,
it took them four days to diagnose that numpad issue.
I was asked to send back the old one and they did cover the shipping.
I just had to throw it in a box and send it on its way. At no point was I frustrated or upset
with the framework support team. And I'm confident in saying that they had no idea
who we were since both devices were purchased using burner emails on credit cards
that were not associated with an employee here.
But framework doesn't come out of our investigation
looking perfect. I'm going to throw it back to Linus
so we can hear the rest of Seth's experience. He spent almost three weeks chatting with support
during which they did send him a motherboard as a troubleshooting step.
But then after the swap, Seth was still having the same issue.
Like Elijah pointed out, asking the user to try something once,
that's fine, even if the end user does say they already did it.
But in this email chain, we can see that framework asked him not once,
but twice to try external displays and not once,
but four times to try different combinations
of shuffling RAM around. I think that would make just about anyone feel
like they're getting the run around, especially if this is happening
over the course of a month. Now, he did say some kind words to framework
in the final email, expressing that he believes in their mission
to create more sustainable and repairable devices,
but that given the laptop was for his wife's schooling,
he couldn't wait around forever for a working device.
I don't blame him for asking for a refund. So what's the takeaway then?
For you guys, it's what we always say. You should be looking for multiple sources of information
every time, multiple media outlets, consumer reviews,
to get the whole picture of a product or company,
you are going to have to go out there and dig for it.
As for framework, well, hey, the good news for you guys is that
while you do make mistakes, it seems like the impression,
even from people who have a bad experience, is that you guys actually care,
and that's a badge that you can wear with honor. That doesn't mean that there's no room to improve,
but hey, at least you guys recognize it.
This Reddit thread actually popped up while we were working on this video,
with Buddy buying 150 devices to deploy,
and then realizing that every time they opened a support ticket,
they were going to have to go through this same tedious back and forth email experience.
I mean, for an end user, snapping some pictures and communicating over a couple of days
might not be the end of the world, but if you're going through that kind of rigmarole
with a fleet of devices, you're going to be tearing your hair out.
Thankfully though, the OP made a follow-up thread explaining
that because of his feedback, framework is actually expanding and changing
some of their systems around their business-to-business sales model,
meaning that other companies should have an easier time
buying and taking care of a large number of their devices.
They even ended it with saying, they sincerely give a f***.
That is very encouraging,
and while I'm not going to give them a grade, because I don't think you can boil this down to just a letter or a number,
I think it's safe to say that I'm still on board,
and actually, whether he knows it yet or not,
so is Seth. I realize, Seth, you probably have another laptop by now,
but I would like to offer you, as a show of our appreciation for bringing this issue to our attention,
Elijah's hand-fixed framework 13.
So hey, thank you very much, and as for the rest of you, let us know in the comments
if you've had any experiences with framework that you guys would like to share.
And while you're down there, hey, maybe check out our sponsor.
If you guys enjoyed this video, maybe go check out the first time that we unboxed a framework laptop.
That was what inspired me to invest in this company, and so far, his investment is safe.
I'm glad I did.