WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.200 You'll own no IP at all and you'll be happy I will be sad what nope not allowed 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:13.800 That's a case of rules the AI will stop you from being sad 00:00:14.360 --> 00:00:19.920 How could you be sad when you live in a utopia where everything's controlled and oh everything's generated? 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:26.120 What are we talking about here Luke's powered by the the IP grinding machine? We're talking about 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:34.240 IP we're talking about AI policy we're talking about how this stuff is gonna possibly work because there's a huge battle going on between 00:00:34.680 --> 00:00:37.600 North American and European AI companies and 00:00:38.800 --> 00:00:43.800 mostly Chinese AI companies deep-seek came and took everyone's lunch and what are we gonna do? 00:00:44.120 --> 00:00:48.240 You it's like you host a stream or something you've done this before maybe 00:00:49.160 --> 00:00:53.760 We haven't done a talk linked in a in a hot second, but then and you've never been on no 00:00:53.800 --> 00:00:57.440 I'm so excited. Yeah, and also get you get to talk about AI 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:04.480 Wait, I just when Linus doesn't let you know on when he whips me as soon as you get to a AI topic 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:10.760 And I know this because I prepare the topic sometimes. Yeah, I'm like, oh they're gonna like this topic 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.880 I stopped preparing them because he just gets there and he goes on his phone 00:01:13.880 --> 00:01:18.320 Yeah, he has literally done that and then he'll get at me for not paying attention during other topics 00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:21.440 But whatever yeah, but now you get to talk about it 00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:26.760 So the the the kind of impetus for all of this was Jack Dorsey the founder 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:33.700 Former CEO of Twitter. Yeah now X which I still call Twitter. Yeah, tweeting 00:01:33.880 --> 00:01:43.240 delete all IP law on April 11th and it kind of sparked some discourse. Yeah, that's that's part of what in my opinion are like the three 00:01:43.600 --> 00:01:50.200 Core topics around AI policy right now, which I laid out as open versus closed models 00:01:50.320 --> 00:01:54.240 Copyright and IP reform and AI safety versus innovation speed. Oh heck 00:01:54.240 --> 00:01:59.600 I think that's like one of the really core things is what do we do with IP law? 00:01:59.600 --> 00:02:03.160 Because when you're looking at the the race for AI stuff 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:08.560 It's becoming more and more like country or alliance based instead of company based 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:15.560 Yeah, a lot of people are looking at it like okay the the West versus the East I guess or right now basically deep-seek v 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:17.560 everyone yeah, yeah, and 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:27.920 There are differences in how the West and China deal with IP law. Do I understand Chinese IP law? 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:35.680 Not even sort of yeah Yeah, I kind of started to Google it in preparation for this and I'm kind of like oh this is gonna be too too complicated 00:02:35.880 --> 00:02:41.960 What my not enough googling has told me is that they are much more lax on IP law 00:02:42.200 --> 00:02:46.840 Especially when it comes to outside of their own country, but also within their own country and 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:52.400 Especially especially when it has to do with anything that could benefit the state right because over here 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:57.760 You know the the North American kind of capitalist mindset is like focused right? 00:02:57.760 --> 00:03:03.160 It's like let people go out there struggle whoever rises at the top is good and China also does that 00:03:03.160 --> 00:03:09.360 I know they do that with like but but it's more like it's like they the government directs these little experiments to happen 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:16.940 So if something is like oh, this will be beneficial to the nation then they can just kind of override 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:21.120 Yeah, the I just make it happen. Yeah, which which when you're in a race like this 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:31.720 Could be very beneficial When the other side the West is like squabbling over are we even allowing these companies to access this data at all? 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:36.680 Which I think what a lot of the argument hinges on right is like the 00:03:37.600 --> 00:03:42.200 morality around letting these gigantic companies that don't care about you and 00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:47.920 Want to loot you for everything you have? Mm-hmm take all of your IP as well or 00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:53.480 Lose the whole race and have it not matter anyways because a company in another country 00:03:53.480 --> 00:03:59.080 That's just gonna do that anyways ends up winning. Yeah, so so for me argument for me 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:05.280 The there's kind of too well there might be more than two but the two perspectives that are kind of popping into my head here are the 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:16.400 like Philosophical argument for AI copyright like as a society just regardless of like, you know where China's at do we think that AI? 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:23.720 Created stuff deserves copyright. Do we think that AI a model could count as the author of something? 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.680 There's all those questions and then there's the kind of more utilitarian 00:04:27.440 --> 00:04:32.120 Like practical question of like is this what we have to do in order to 00:04:32.760 --> 00:04:40.440 Keep up in the nuclear AI arms race with China. So which of those is more interesting to you? Well, I think right now the 00:04:41.640 --> 00:04:46.480 Canon AI have ownership over something that it creates thing 00:04:47.960 --> 00:04:53.320 Is is Technically somewhat decided in law right now and it's no 00:04:53.960 --> 00:04:59.480 Right. Well, it can can an AI model count as the author. Yeah. Yeah, I think no right now 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:05.200 It's no. Yeah, the copyright office has ruled a couple times. I think at least yeah about 00:05:06.200 --> 00:05:09.280 There's multiple precedents. I think there's one guy in particular 00:05:09.280 --> 00:05:15.480 We'll look it up later Maybe but like there's one guy in particular who has submitted multiple times to be like, okay 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.080 This is definitely one for sure guys 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:25.560 But I used an AI this time and this time this AI is sentient for sure guys and the copyright office is like stop coming back here 00:05:26.440 --> 00:05:30.880 And put on some pants. So there's precedent against that dude. Yeah. Yeah 00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:37.320 Yeah, but I mean, I think that the the like do do we get to keep copyright in an era where 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:41.240 All these companies are just kind of gobbling everything up anyway 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:47.240 Like that those are the interesting lawsuits that are moving through the big one being opening. I versus the New York Times 00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:52.920 Yeah It's so interesting like chat GBT has been out since 00:05:53.440 --> 00:05:59.200 2022 and obviously transformer based LLMs. They were out for a while. I mean they were in research 00:06:00.280 --> 00:06:06.120 Scenarios, but attention is all you need. It's been yeah, it's 2017. Yeah, I've done research 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.200 I can't believe that this question is still kind of as open as it is 00:06:10.200 --> 00:06:15.480 I would have expected there to be some precedent set and a ruling set by that by now 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:21.960 But we're still just kind of like, you know meta just is also going through proceedings where they're like you 00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:29.680 You literally torrented like every book ever. I mean not that you know, but like a massive archive of books 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:34.200 Yeah, and like that's the that's the and this I'm not the first person to reference this at all 00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:37.960 But one of the co-founders. I think of reddit 00:06:38.520 --> 00:06:44.360 Mm-hmm. I was out so Hainian. I don't remember the exact details of this story, but I believe he was pirating 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.080 Like research papers and then making them available to people for free 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.800 I think yeah, and then he was gonna get thrown in jail forever and ended up 00:06:54.760 --> 00:07:02.360 Unaliving oh oh over it because it like ruined his whole life. Wait Aaron Schwartz. You know what Aaron Schwartz? 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:08.600 Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm familiar. Yeah. Yeah, and then now a company's doing it on a much grander scale 00:07:08.840 --> 00:07:13.560 Like oh, you know what that seems fine. That totally reminds me 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:19.240 I saw an article recently like referencing Aaron Schwartz. Yeah, and like how bonkers it is. It's like actually 00:07:19.880 --> 00:07:26.520 kind of similar Well, it's it's crazy that that was the case just a few years ago 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:35.400 Yeah, and really not that long ago. He was his entire life was gonna be ruined. Yep, and now we have every tech company ever is just 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:43.000 Gobbling up. I mean I had as one of the points I wanted to talk about these like AI web crawlers that are 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.440 Taking up tons of bandwidth. Oh, yeah 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:52.920 We've referenced it a couple times on TechLinked But there are like a number of studies now and like reports from 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.920 Administrators being like yeah, we looked into it and it's like 80 percent of our web traffic is just AI crawlers 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:03.160 so regardless we can I don't want to bash on AI completely because 00:08:03.880 --> 00:08:10.680 I feel like there's an argument here and like for for AI for embedding it in 00:08:11.320 --> 00:08:16.200 society at every level for even maybe deleting all IP law 00:08:17.080 --> 00:08:22.680 And the argument would be is if it's actually if it if it actually leads to this 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:30.040 Scenario that Jack Dorsey and apparently Elon Musk and whoever because Elon Musk tweeted as well. I agree 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:35.240 To delete all IP law Yeah, if the argument by 00:08:35.800 --> 00:08:41.240 Putting being put forward by them. They're like, okay. This is actually going to help us. It's actually going to lead to a situation where we benefit 00:08:42.520 --> 00:08:49.400 Do we like if you could know deleting all IP law will lead to a kind of a utopian society where you don't need money 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:55.960 It feels like you know, there's a bunch of stories that are like this where you have utopian society and then like in the basement of city hall 00:08:56.040 --> 00:09:05.240 there's just like A terrible demon machine that is like the reason why everything's okay. I feel like this is one of those scenarios. I I don't think 00:09:06.920 --> 00:09:13.640 And I'm decently confident. This is the route. It's going to go to I don't think deleting IP law is like the way to go 00:09:13.800 --> 00:09:18.200 I feel like what they're trying to do is like gambit and overcorrection 00:09:18.680 --> 00:09:24.760 So they're trying to be like, let's delete everything hoping that they'll end up somewhere 50% of the way 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:29.960 If that makes sense because I don't think they think that's going to happen either to be completely honest 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.560 But I think they're trying to do the like Trumpian move of like 00:09:34.280 --> 00:09:39.560 I'm going to ask for this and then I'll send end up somewhere here, you know, we'll delete half of IP law 00:09:39.640 --> 00:09:45.960 Yeah, well, I think it's going to be IP reform Because like a lot of the laws that were made weren't even really made 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:54.120 In the internet age let alone Let alone the the like AI web crawler crazy situation. We are now 00:09:54.360 --> 00:10:01.480 So it's likely a lot of modernization and reform that needs to happen. I mean, we even have this problem with like youtube videos 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:08.600 Um, like there's this huge question mark of like, can I have a clip from a movie in my video? 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:14.360 Yeah, like maybe but also maybe not. Yeah, I've been scared to put anything 00:10:14.760 --> 00:10:20.360 Yeah, that could go over the line But then like all short form content seems to just be able to use whatever music they want 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.960 Yeah, and like that seems fine. I guess that's completely different luke 00:10:24.520 --> 00:10:28.120 It's whole totally different one is watched by young people 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:32.760 And the other they don't have money. Why do they matter? They don't they're too dumb 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:40.120 They're young and dumb. They don't know about copyright Yeah, elijah one of the parallels that I would draw is to patents and it's not perfect 00:10:40.680 --> 00:10:47.400 But it's it's an interesting argument because there's a huge debate on whether or not patents have driven or stifled innovation in the past 00:10:47.800 --> 00:10:52.680 And I think it really depends on the time the country 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:56.280 The the field of innovation like it depends on tons of stuff 00:10:56.760 --> 00:11:01.800 A lot of people this is the right brothers conversation. I warned you but a lot of people look at the right brothers and are like 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:10.120 Oh my god, they brought in avi. This is amazing, right? We didn't we didn't think we were gonna fly for a long time and then the right brothers got us up in the air 00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:16.680 That's true. That's sick. That's cool. They immediately turned into patent trolls as far as my understanding goes 00:11:16.760 --> 00:11:20.200 I could be wrong about this a little bit of online research led me to find that 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.440 They got their patent and then just 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:29.240 Just wrecked everyone else as much as they could and like very close to stopped innovating 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:34.680 Oh, jeez. They they like got aviation off the ground and then just tried to make money off of what they did 00:11:34.920 --> 00:11:41.880 Did you get this info from grok? No, okay, but there's also like in my opinion the 00:11:43.160 --> 00:11:49.080 Which I don't think is as common anymore, but being an inventor as your trade as like what you do 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:59.080 Probably became a thing Because of things like patents and ip law. Oh, yeah, he's an inventory like no one has thought of you know, uh automatic egg 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:04.120 Making machine or something It's a chicken at one point 00:12:04.760 --> 00:12:07.560 ip law, copyright law patent law, whatever, uh 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:15.240 Spurred innovation and if we get rid of it, you're worried that we would lose that there's but there's there's stories in both sides because like 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:18.920 Let's come back to more ip specific law, right? 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:23.320 Disney kind of owned children's entertainment for a long time 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:28.360 Most of our lives and a lot of before it. Yes, and now they're losing 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.160 But they're not losing because you can use mickey mouse in other content now 00:12:33.880 --> 00:12:40.040 Because that is the thing that happened That was like a tiny splash a bunch of games all came out all at once right when that got lifted 00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:44.040 That all features micky mouse. Yeah, and none of them were good. Everyone stopped caring 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:50.040 Almost immediately no one talks about it anymore at all and bluey is just completely taking their life. Heck. Yeah 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:55.000 Have you watched bluey? I have seen some bluey bluey's frickins. It makes me cry 00:12:55.240 --> 00:13:01.560 They like lost their ability to protect their ip on mickey, right and it didn't matter and that's why the mcu 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:08.200 Didn't isn't as good anymore Because they they're losing there because they stopped they didn't stop 00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:11.400 Uh steamboat willy from escaping 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:14.520 He was going to join the avengers 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:19.880 Steamboat willy was yeah, honestly. I would go watch that I would I haven't watched a 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:25.560 Marvel movie in many years if steamboat willy joined the adventures adventures. I would go 00:13:25.800 --> 00:13:30.360 I mean, I will say that like one argument for the deleting of ip law 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:38.520 is the The the few times there's been a couple times where disney points puts out a project and it seems like the entire point of 00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:44.280 The project is just a brag about how much ip they have Like did you see the ralph wrecks the internet movie? 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:52.280 Like quite a few years ago. Did you you saw it? I think so. Okay. Yeah, it was just the whole movie just seemed like they were like 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.600 Wait wreck it ralph. So there's wreck it ralph and then the sequel was ralph breaks the internet 00:13:56.920 --> 00:13:59.960 Wreck it ralph. They had a couple I recognizable people there was sonic 00:14:00.040 --> 00:14:07.000 It was there like bowser and stuff But then they go to the internet in the second one and they they go to like disney the disney website 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:12.520 And it's just like wow, what a magical place. Look there's star wars and there's these then lilo and stitch and label 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.160 And like they're just showing all the princesses are there 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:20.360 So it was basically like look at all these things that used to be cool that watching that movie 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:26.280 Made me think like this is kind of like if I if I watch that movie and then jack dorsy 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:30.760 Called me up and like we should delete all ip law and I'd be like jack you're so smart 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:40.280 Why don't we talk more often? No Please call me it kind of makes me feel that way because it's like we're heading into this ai future 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:46.600 Where if ai gets power like there's kind of two paths that I see. Yeah 00:14:48.520 --> 00:14:52.680 One is We lock this down and we're like enough 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:58.600 Ai companies you're going all over the place. You're you're slurping up everyone's stuff and making slop 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.480 We need to stop this you if you want to train on material you got to license it 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:08.200 You got to pay all the people you've already trained other material like like either that that's not going to happen 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:11.720 but like that's either we kind of move in that direction or 00:15:12.680 --> 00:15:15.160 Things just kind of keep progressing as they have been 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:20.120 and copyright and ip Just kind of become 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:25.080 This kind of nebulous like like the the walls get torn down a lot more. Yeah 00:15:26.040 --> 00:15:28.600 And it's a lot more sketchy 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:34.040 As to what's infringing and what's not you think we're going there. I think we're going there 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:40.120 So jack doors. He's gonna mostly maybe get his way. I think he's going to partially win. I don't think like I said earlier 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.960 I don't think we're gonna be deleting ip law, but I think there will be significant reform 00:15:44.680 --> 00:15:49.240 because I I don't see America effectively just 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.320 kind of Being willing to lose the ai race 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:59.720 Because I see this as they're in in their opinion. This is this is computers. This is uh.com 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:05.640 They have to fight again. So I I think I agree with you if we're talking about like the powers that be 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.320 Yeah, the uh, you know tech corporations government 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:19.640 They definitely don't want to lose to china. Yeah The question then is what is what are the how do the people feel about it? Oh, yeah, because every time I encounter 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:27.640 sentiment about ai and Copyright online. This is why this tweet was so interesting because the vast majority 00:16:28.520 --> 00:16:32.520 of The discourse around ai and copyright online is like 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:39.560 Yeah, there's these ai companies are stealing from people. Well, they are yeah. Yeah, and you have the tech bros, you know 00:16:39.560 --> 00:16:48.440 Whatever coming out every once in a while being like We need to chill a guys. We need like how are we gonna get exponential growth if we don't steal all this copyrighted stuff? 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:56.600 um And but they don't usually like that's not getting a ton of engagement. It's like this but this is saying the quiet part out loud pretty much 00:16:57.400 --> 00:17:00.360 It's because it's because it doesn't feel good. They are stealing stuff 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:05.240 They are taking other people's work and they are directly aggressively profiting off of it the 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:11.640 Well profiting off of investment, I guess most these companies are really not making a profit 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:17.000 Yeah, they're not they're not taking the copyright machine and putting it into a different machine and it's like wow 00:17:17.080 --> 00:17:22.920 It's chewing up the copyright and spitting out profit. Yeah, they're tricking people into thinking their value machine putting a cool 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.720 Little bow on it and be like you want to give me money? Yeah for nothing. Yeah sick. Um 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:37.160 The bubble man Yeah, the bubble's pretty sorry you're you're saying something though. No, it's just it doesn't feel good. Yeah, it's morally 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:42.440 I think it's like bad You're taking significant work from people especially 00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:48.760 Oh, and we already see this from google right a lot of small brands are getting screwed over by these search engines and now 00:17:49.320 --> 00:17:54.200 also by ai systems because Everything's intercepting 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:58.840 Like even right now if you're using google search not even if you're in a chat program 00:17:58.840 --> 00:18:01.960 If you're using google search it will give you an ai summary at the top 00:18:02.520 --> 00:18:08.280 And the ai summary will often make it so that you do not have to go through and click onto one of those websites 00:18:08.760 --> 00:18:11.560 And that is making it so that independent small time 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:20.120 research writing Whatever is all effectively being defunded by these platforms that are using them in order to succeed 00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:26.520 Right and that is a crazy concept. Yeah, because like okay, we might win the ai race 00:18:27.080 --> 00:18:30.040 But at what cost the cost of like literally everything else 00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:33.960 I was gonna say like okay. Yeah, definitely at the cost of like 00:18:34.520 --> 00:18:38.280 You know smaller creators smaller like copyright holders or whatever 00:18:38.840 --> 00:18:43.000 Uh smaller companies that are trying to get up and the seo rankings and they just can't 00:18:43.560 --> 00:18:47.640 I think but also at the cost of like I feel like our minds there have been some 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:54.040 studies looking at People who use ai a lot versus people who don't use ai a lot and it's like 00:18:54.520 --> 00:18:59.480 Looking at their like problem-solving ability your ability like novel tasks. Yeah, they're worse at it 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:04.280 And I I know that when I go to google something it gives me an ai overview 00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:09.000 I know how to google stuff. My whole job is like researching stuff and like reporting on it 00:19:09.320 --> 00:19:13.320 So like I've learned how to be really good good at like google foo. Yeah, but 00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:21.720 Most people are not and they're going to be even worse now If they don't even have to click into like one site to see what the see the answer 00:19:22.120 --> 00:19:29.080 Or what the quote unquote answer Because it might be it might be fake. So I don't it's it's crazy that we we all know 00:19:29.560 --> 00:19:38.760 That ai hallucinates and just makes stuff up all the time But a huge portion of the internet like genuinely a lot of people seem to be going under the the route of 00:19:39.320 --> 00:19:46.680 Blindlessly verifying things with ai. Mm-hmm. So like you see this on the tweeters, which I'm still going to call it 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.840 Um where someone will be like At grok is this true don't call it the tweeters the tweeters 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:57.400 Just call it twitter twitter. All right Um 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:02.760 But they'll ask like grok or perplexity or whatever other ones will respond to tweets if something is true 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.120 And then they will just take that fully at face value. I may 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:10.600 Which is brutal. I made a joke about this in teclic the other day because yeah, I've seen this where 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:15.480 Someone makes a claim and someone's like, I don't think that's true and they're like, well 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:21.720 It is because look at this website and then they say hey grok is this true and it's like just click on the website 00:20:22.280 --> 00:20:26.920 Just google it. Why are you asking an ai that may or may not lie to your face? 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.840 Like they've gotten a lot better, but they still hallucinate enough that it's like, why are you trusting? 00:20:33.800 --> 00:20:36.840 Yeah, and then it was even worse as the people who are like 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:43.160 I collaborated with chat gpt on on this and then they like post some giant freaking thing 00:20:44.360 --> 00:20:47.960 What was your participation? I was wondering about whether this is the case 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.680 So I asked chat gpt and it told me that so I guess chat gpt likes this and it's like guys 00:20:53.400 --> 00:21:00.760 stop Yeah, the confirmation bias is crazy too because a lot of the chat programs will try to detect what you're leaning towards and just affirm it 00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:07.640 Yeah, because people like those responses We've done a lot of bashing on ai so far. Yeah, but I 00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:12.600 It serves it. Well, it does But I know that you and I 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:18.840 Well, I don't know but I have a suspicion that you and I share an appreciation for some of its upsides as well 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.080 Yeah, and I want to talk about that After this segue to our sponsor 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:28.840 Okay, now ai this essentially the argument we're talking about is ai safety versus innovation speed because it's like 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:36.120 Is it more worth going for the moral argument of this sucks? We're stealing things from people or is it more worth not losing to china? 00:21:36.280 --> 00:21:41.080 Right, and this is why I think the reason why there hasn't been precedent set is these are such different 00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:45.000 weights That it's it's hard to 00:21:46.840 --> 00:21:50.520 And like the same person can want both sides of it 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.960 Very deeply the same person can want to not steal 00:21:57.320 --> 00:22:07.800 All thought creation from humanity ever And also not want to lose this war because if you lose this then this side didn't matter anyways, so it's like 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.640 It's especially hard because you can like 00:22:12.520 --> 00:22:18.440 As you were saying that my first kind of like gut reaction is like but what about principles, you know like there's kind of like 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.680 You know the utilitarian thing of like this is what's necessary in order to win 00:22:22.760 --> 00:22:27.480 But i'm like oh at what cost what if we lose our soul as as a as a society 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.600 But at the same time it's like well If china develops a 00:22:32.760 --> 00:22:36.360 Super intelligence that kind of hacks the entire world and makes everything 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.480 You know whatever they want it to be then we won't have a society 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:46.120 That's like very far on the end of the possibilities, but I mean there's also the the problem of 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:53.960 How consumers act about things which is everyone will say online not everyone i'm exaggerating a lot of people will say online 00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:58.680 that they want the You know don't steal everything from everyone route 00:22:59.080 --> 00:23:03.320 But then if a company that does do that releases a model that's better 00:23:04.360 --> 00:23:10.440 They will use it well And yeah that and like that the precedent of that is like 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.960 Carved into every stone on the planet who's they when you say they will use it users 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:24.360 If if everyone knows that many uh things are made in sweatshops by slaves and they keep buying them 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:30.920 people won't like Gambling but they'll watch kick people won't like a certain thing 00:23:31.320 --> 00:23:34.920 Yeah, but then if the thing is better they'll buy it anyways 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:39.080 And I guess this kind of comes into a part of the conversation that I wanted to 00:23:39.560 --> 00:23:45.160 address which was the usefulness of ai the the pros of ai because 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.240 I remember I had friends that are not techie people 00:23:49.800 --> 00:24:00.040 um one is a teacher and In like 2023 like shortly after chat gpt. He's released. I go and talk to him and he's like yeah chat 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:06.600 I use chat gpt all the time like first of all I was like, you know what chat gpt is because these are like not techie people 00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:10.760 Yeah, and he's like yeah use it to help me like make a lesson growth in history 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:16.920 Yeah, I have to hit a lot of people right? Yeah, and and he was using it to make lesson plans for his kids and like coming up with ideas for stuff 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:20.440 And I was like wow like because that that was at a point where I even I wasn't really 00:24:21.080 --> 00:24:25.240 I I haven't found it to be super super useful for my specific 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.520 Work yeah, um my my dad's a plumbing instructor and they use it for yeah lesson plans 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:39.240 Yeah, and once it gets like once these actual like multimodal updates get out like it's uh gemini live is now 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:43.560 Available with the live camera feed. Yeah, I think chat gpt has 00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:49.240 I know you can feed images and I think they have a camera mode for the gem like there's live mode too. There's um 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:53.720 I think a lot of people dramatically misuse AI 00:24:54.520 --> 00:24:59.080 And like for instance like I say that about my dad's lesson plan lesson plans for plumbing and people like oh 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:04.920 Hopefully doesn't like teach people to go outside of code and it's like well. No, he's controlling those aspects 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.800 He's using it to build the structure 00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:13.160 Right to build the pacing to come up with the document that he can put the information on 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:18.200 He's using it to help organizational skills those types of things the way that I'll often use it is to 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:24.520 Review my output and give me feedback on my output. I don't use it for output 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:31.560 But like what kind of output are you talking about my most common use case is I will write an email that is like 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:39.640 I sure hope this goes well Uh, so but you know, maybe I have to be rather serious or whatever in the tone of the email 00:25:39.800 --> 00:25:43.640 But I want to make sure that I get my point across but not come across as aggressive or whatever else 00:25:43.800 --> 00:25:48.840 So I'll ask it for a sentiment analysis of the email. Oh, and then I might ask it like if I'm like, okay 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:54.040 That's not what I wanted someone to get from this Yeah, and it got that from this then I'll be like, okay 00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:58.600 How would you change it to get it there? And then I won't use its output, but I'll use it to help 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:04.760 Guide me in that direction. Did I mention lizards too many times? Well, like sometimes their email is pretty good 00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:06.840 But you seem weirdly focused on lizards 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:12.600 Maybe you should draw back on the lizards. I think they're not like a reptile person 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.760 Maybe cats we've had um, I think it's also a good 00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:23.320 um kickstarter of sorts like For for writer's block, for instance, if you have to write, um 00:26:24.360 --> 00:26:29.960 A video on something you could use it to give you your skeleton. I've found I've tried to get it to write youtube videos 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.680 Man, it sucks. Yeah, I don't know if you've tried. I've used it a couple times when I like 00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:37.640 Can't think of a word for something or like I'm like 00:26:38.520 --> 00:26:44.120 Writing a joke and I'm like, oh man This is like this and I'm just like drawing a blank and I'm like, what's uh 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:49.000 Was this thing something like when this guy says this and then another guy comes at it like that and they're like 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:54.680 Maybe this and I'm like, okay. Thank you. Yeah, that makes sense. But but writing whole scripts. No, no good 00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:58.680 but You can use it as like a research assistant 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:04.440 Um, again, there's huge pitfalls there because you shouldn't just believe what it outputs 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.480 But you can use it as like a kicking off point So like something that I've done is like, okay 00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:16.920 Here's a topic What are the like key fields of interest in this topic? Right and it'll give me that list and then I'll go off and 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:21.800 Yeah, learn things about those all of the ai chatbots now have like deep research modes 00:27:22.280 --> 00:27:25.960 It does a good job of like giving you kind of a beginner's summary of stuff 00:27:26.360 --> 00:27:33.720 But if you know a lot about a topic and you're like What was the finding of this research like in the 19th whatever and it's like they found up this 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:38.600 They found this stuff that I just made up because I'm an ai and you're like, well, I know that's not true 00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:44.920 So it's like, but that's why like you mentioned earlier in the show that it's getting better with like hallucinations and stuff 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:53.720 A little bit It's only a little bit. I think it's getting better at convincing people that it's not doing it. Yeah. Um, I don't know 00:27:55.320 --> 00:27:57.320 I don't personally think it's getting 00:27:58.360 --> 00:28:01.640 Dramatically better overall Um 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:08.040 There are measures that it's getting a bit better But I really think it's just getting better at convincing people and it's getting better at using 00:28:08.520 --> 00:28:11.720 slightly more vague language and stuff like that to get away from 00:28:12.360 --> 00:28:18.440 um Actually being pointed as doing things wrong because I catch it hallucinating stuff. Oh, yeah 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:21.240 All the time I will say that I've 00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:27.480 I've I've just started trying to use it a little bit to help me research tech length stories 00:28:28.040 --> 00:28:31.320 Um, it's kind of like one of the steps in the process 00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:35.000 And it has not been it has not been very uh useful 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:40.600 But most of the time it's not hallucinating fake stuff as much as it's like I'm asking for 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:47.720 Uh stories that are recent and it like brings me something from a month ago. Here's something from last quarter. Yeah. Yeah 00:28:48.280 --> 00:28:50.680 On balance if you look at the whole field 00:28:52.040 --> 00:28:56.200 Do you feel like the majority of ai tools that are available? 00:28:57.080 --> 00:29:01.640 Are like helpful or just kind of taking up space and taking up resources. Whoa, okay 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.840 Because there's a majority of ai tools. So if you include every ai tool in that pool 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:13.960 Then honestly, no, there's a lot of compute a lot of resources being taken up. Yeah, and 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:23.640 they're able to do that because These companies vacuumed up ip vacuumed up copyright and massive investment because that's the the hotness right now 00:29:23.800 --> 00:29:28.920 I think most of the tools are are garbage and we'll lose and we'll die and that is how these like 00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:35.720 Very startup focus fields work. So that's pretty natural. I don't actually think that's weird. I don't think that's ai specific 00:29:36.040 --> 00:29:41.800 I think that's just that's true big new fancy field with lots of investment dollars and everyone trying to dive in all at the same time 00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:47.880 So a lot of those people are gonna make garbage for for the handful of like crypto projects that were actually kind of cool 00:29:48.120 --> 00:29:52.760 Yeah, maybe like we can they did exist. They did like the idea of having some like 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:58.680 Records and stuff on a blockchain system. That was cool. Yep, but for every one of those there were 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:03.880 250 thousand 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.160 Yeah, garbage things. So it's the same for ai, but 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.160 Maybe that all won't matter if 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:14.360 You know, we only need one we only need one asi 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.640 artificial super intelligence And then it'll all be worth it 00:30:20.280 --> 00:30:26.360 Ascii you can do it. Yeah, what? Yeah, ascii artificial super general intelligence 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:29.480 I've never heard that together. I've heard agi and asi 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.760 You can't just put them together like that. We were talking earlier about innovators. That's true. I'm an inventor. Wow 00:30:35.320 --> 00:30:41.960 Here's a patent, sir That was you just witnessed innovation jack dorsey. This is what you're trying to kill. Yeah 00:30:42.600 --> 00:30:50.680 Stop it think of the children So maybe jack dorsey's right and we'll have a utopia and none of us will own any ip and everything will be fine 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.240 And maybe jack dorsey and ilo musk and sam altman 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:58.200 Especially sam altman 00:30:59.320 --> 00:31:04.840 Are gonna enslave all of us. Yeah, definitely especially sam altman and those are the two options 00:31:05.080 --> 00:31:09.080 Ilan just wants to impregnate all of us. He can be persuasive 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.480 I think this has been a huge wake-up call for people about uh, chinese 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:19.560 position on value chain america has traditionally been positioned very high on the value chain and then 00:31:20.360 --> 00:31:22.760 I think in a lot of north american views 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:29.720 You you go down the value chain from america and end up in china and a few other countries at the bottom of the value chain 00:31:30.040 --> 00:31:34.520 But I think this and the tariff were going on and a few other things have revealed 00:31:34.760 --> 00:31:39.720 That china is much higher on the value chain than we previously thought and has the active ability now 00:31:40.120 --> 00:31:44.120 To take rungs on the value chain. Yes, and I think one of those 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:51.400 Yes No, I was just saying that because I was thinking about a recent story that just came up with their 00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:59.640 They have chips that they say are More performant than NVIDIA's equivalent. But anyways, go ahead. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know all about that being true 00:31:59.800 --> 00:32:04.600 But yeah, who knows they're they're progressing very quickly in a lot of these fields CPU's GPU's 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.400 AI technology movies random one 00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:11.480 Lots and lots lots of fields where they're they're really taking major steps forward 00:32:11.800 --> 00:32:16.680 One of those places insane story that I I don't understand how it doesn't get talked about more 00:32:16.760 --> 00:32:21.400 But uh the quote that I have here is ford ceo jim farley admitted 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:26.280 He's been driving a xiaomi su 7 for six months and doesn't want to give it up 00:32:27.080 --> 00:32:32.920 The ford ceo drives a 30 000 dollar chinese electric made vehicle. Sorry chinese made electric vehicle 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:39.880 Unavailable in the us due to tariffs and safety regulation issues. Is this something that he revealed uh on a podcast 00:32:40.040 --> 00:32:43.800 Like like of his own volition. We are now. We're basically the ford ceo. Yes, he did 00:32:44.520 --> 00:32:48.760 It was of his own volition. Why would he do that? I feel like that's like so dumb motor company 00:32:49.080 --> 00:32:54.840 Mentioned that he didn't want to give up a 30 000 dollar vehicle from a competing company because it was so good 00:32:55.320 --> 00:32:59.720 That should be is he about to cash out or something like what donning wake up call the people 00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:08.520 Yeah about the automotive industry outside of america Yeah, I think in e v's in particular. Oh, yeah, china is like leapfrogging the automotive industry 00:33:08.520 --> 00:33:13.400 I start falling apart and have panel gaps that I can shove my fists through um and are like 00:33:14.120 --> 00:33:16.760 You know, they're they're just partying on slack sharing people's 00:33:17.320 --> 00:33:21.800 Videos and stuff like that. So like if you're and I think that's a big part of the problem too 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:26.920 We're like when you when you think about chinese products people traditionally go like oh, but like they're gonna steal your information 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.360 Right. It's like yeah, but we we know 00:33:31.320 --> 00:33:38.520 That our companies are yeah for sure. Well, yeah, that's a documented evidence. That's a whole another that's a whole another conversation 00:33:38.600 --> 00:33:41.640 I feel like which I'm still I don't know what to think about 00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:48.360 Because that's been the main reason why I'm like, uh, don't I don't want to use that like chinese phone or whatever 00:33:48.520 --> 00:33:52.840 Who knows what data they're sending but 00:33:52.840 --> 00:33:57.160 I know my dad is going out to all these other companies. So like so at a certain point it's like 00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:04.120 This is the future. This is what they're saying. They're like ip doesn't matter your personal information doesn't matter 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.880 You'll own nothing including your own personal information 00:34:08.520 --> 00:34:15.320 And your own thoughts If you can't sell them anymore neural link and you'll be happy. Yeah, but we'll have to see 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:21.800 I don't know if this tweet that jack dorsy reposted is gonna come to pass in which so he tweeted 00:34:22.200 --> 00:34:25.160 He retweeted a interview with microsoft a i ceo 00:34:25.720 --> 00:34:31.240 Mustafa Suleyman who says the future isn't ubi universal basic income. It's ubp 00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:39.720 universal basic provision Abundant intelligence as the new currency you won't need more money because knowledge won't be something you buy 00:34:40.600 --> 00:34:46.440 Not cash capability. We won't need cash because we'll have ai assistants who can do everything for us 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.120 You don't need to go to the store and buy a pop 00:34:50.680 --> 00:34:54.760 A soda Your ai will just synthesize it for you. Okay 00:34:55.720 --> 00:35:00.680 This feels like that south park episode where randy can't fix his oven because he can't fix the oven door 00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:07.800 and then the the like Handy men people end up being the wealthiest people in society 00:35:08.120 --> 00:35:10.840 Because no one can fix anything because no one knows how to do anything 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:15.880 And they they I don't remember if this happens in the episode, but I'm gonna make it up. I guess 00:35:16.680 --> 00:35:21.800 I'm hallucinating But they they like ask an ai to fix the door and it just tries to teach him how to do it 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:28.920 But he's like no, I want you to fix the door it keeps giving them steps But he's like no, I want you to fix the door like we don't have things that can do our laundry right now 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:32.600 We don't have things that can build houses. We don't have things that can fix plumbing 00:35:32.600 --> 00:35:39.400 We don't have things that can do any of that kind of stuff It's like he's talking about provisions of like this thing that can draw studio ghibli for me 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.560 Or like write a terrible email or a really really really bad youtube video that would get one view 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:50.840 Like is that really I'm really excited about that being a universal provision. Thanks bro 00:35:51.080 --> 00:35:56.440 I think that's what makes the whole conversation just so so hard to come down on one side of because it's so uncertain 00:35:56.760 --> 00:36:02.120 You need your apartment to not leak. Is is is chat gpt gonna help you with that? Yeah 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:08.200 like It's hot and there's there's droughts and and uh like there's peaks and valleys too 00:36:08.520 --> 00:36:14.760 Like sometimes it seems like the ai whole thing is just hype and sometimes it's like oh, this is okay. It's happening. Yeah 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:22.200 We're not gonna solve it in this podcast But maybe in the next one so subscribe possibly 00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:26.600 I wouldn't want to miss it. It might happen. Maybe we'll invent a gi 00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:30.920 Right here a s watch out open ai 00:36:33.560 --> 00:36:39.800 We're gonna delete your ip Hey, thanks for watching. Uh, that was a talk linked. Uh, subscribe to TechLinked 00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:46.760 See you later. Maybe I'll do another one of these in half a year. Nope never happening never again. Bye 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:50.200 You