WEBVTT 00:00:00.060 --> 00:00:06.960 talk linked it's back with the number 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:08.400 one co-host uh as voted by you the 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:12.420 viewers of America I feel like I haven't been on talking in like two and a half years well that's because we haven't 00:00:10.980 --> 00:00:17.039 done it in like two and a half years all right let's get into it but then we started doing it and guess what we're 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:20.400 talking about today James uh AI generated art see this is why I love you 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:27.300 on talk linked you just want to cut right to the point yeah don't waste the beer's time 00:00:23.820 --> 00:00:30.500 information density let's go I 00:00:27.300 --> 00:00:33.600 just want to know how you're doing 00:00:30.500 --> 00:00:35.340 the reason we're here is because a news 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:38.760 story just came out today about a synthetic media artist Jason Allen I 00:00:37.739 --> 00:00:44.100 think that actually came out yesterday but he won the Colorado State Fair Fine 00:00:41.879 --> 00:00:49.500 Arts competition in the Digital Arts category and good for him you know 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:53.520 those judges got to catch up yeah uh wait why what do you mean 00:00:51.180 --> 00:00:56.820 because an AI generated his entry oh well that was the key that was the key 00:00:55.020 --> 00:01:04.079 detail that I hadn't gotten to yet yes the reason he won was because he isn't 00:01:00.059 --> 00:01:04.079 actually an artist at all arguably 00:01:06.260 --> 00:01:11.820 he used an AI called mid-journey and 00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:16.020 used a special prompt that he will be publishing quote unquote at a later date 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:19.799 that's this whole process his uh 11 herbs of spices is that secret prompt 00:01:18.119 --> 00:01:24.659 right exactly what combination of text yielded this art piece yeah so so the 00:01:22.320 --> 00:01:29.820 whole story came about firstly because of this tweet that I'll click into 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:33.420 um that someone was very upset about this 00:01:32.100 --> 00:01:39.240 but apparently um he goes by sincarnate on on Discord 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:42.119 or whatever and he talked about his his 00:01:39.240 --> 00:01:47.579 win here and uh he's like hey that's so great look at this I I used a a personal 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:51.060 project he's made using mid-journey and uh yeah people are upset about it 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:56.100 James is AI art art 00:01:54.119 --> 00:02:01.140 first of all is it art and then we'll talk about whether you know you can take 00:01:57.899 --> 00:02:02.820 credit for it oh that's let's just start 00:02:01.140 --> 00:02:07.979 with the most philosophical and Abstract question like I guess the Crux of any 00:02:06.240 --> 00:02:13.379 anyone who squeamish to answer that with anything but a fast yes or no uh the 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:17.099 that person was probably grappling with the question of does art need to be 00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:23.280 generated by humans really what it comes down to is it art uh 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:27.239 in order to answer that question you have to you have to ask what is art well 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:31.260 I think the thing with art is the fuzziness of it and when you're talking 00:02:28.860 --> 00:02:35.879 about a computer generating it it seems more like a computation this is an 00:02:33.660 --> 00:02:38.879 output it's deterministic the machine will create this output every single 00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:43.200 time because it's a computer but that's actually not true because these art 00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:47.700 generators they output multiple different iterations every time you hit 00:02:45.540 --> 00:02:51.599 enter right so even with the same text prompt you probably won't get this exact 00:02:49.140 --> 00:02:55.260 piece ever again so in that sense it still has that ephemeral quality of it 00:02:53.519 --> 00:03:00.540 and that fuzziness that making it art see I would argue 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:07.200 that's a good point thank you but I would argue that art has to have 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:10.080 some sort of intentionality behind it 00:03:07.200 --> 00:03:15.720 because if it wasn't intended to be produced in a certain way then 00:03:12.959 --> 00:03:19.379 it may evoke feelings in it in the viewer or in in the ex person 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:24.060 experiencing it you know whether it's whether it's an image or music or 00:03:21.060 --> 00:03:26.879 whatever it may evoke certain feelings 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:29.640 but you go and watch it you go and look at a beautiful mountain and you feel 00:03:28.440 --> 00:03:34.019 something that doesn't make the mountain art so you're saying that uh so there's 00:03:32.700 --> 00:03:39.000 an intentionality of the person creating the prompt this is a collaborative collaborative effort between the person 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:42.180 at the keyboard and the AI yes and the person at the keyboard has an intention 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:46.260 of what they want that's why they they create the string that they do in the 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:50.940 way that they create it however there is a distance there where I just have to 00:03:48.959 --> 00:03:54.599 roll the dice and see what the AI is going to Output right it just gives you 00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:58.739 a random like uh here's a few things yeah and so I don't I don't control that 00:03:56.940 --> 00:04:02.580 I can try to approximate it with my words but but then with the so then the 00:04:01.140 --> 00:04:05.879 the thing actually doing the generation of the art the AI it doesn't have 00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:08.940 intentionality well it's intention is to try to closely you know produce 00:04:07.799 --> 00:04:14.220 something that matches what you've said but it doesn't have a it's not trying to make a statement you know it doesn't so 00:04:13.019 --> 00:04:21.120 this collaborative effort the intentionality is kind of severed so exactly that's why I think it's not art 00:04:18.299 --> 00:04:24.900 yeah I feel like you need to have well so I I think the the thing that just 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:28.680 popped in my head was like I Choose Your Own Adventure story 00:04:26.580 --> 00:04:34.020 or like a multiple choice test let's go let's Choose Your Own Adventure uh an 00:04:31.139 --> 00:04:38.160 author has written out a number of possible branching paths for a story to 00:04:36.479 --> 00:04:41.100 take and as you're reading this choose your own I'm thinking about the books 00:04:40.020 --> 00:04:47.639 but like that's not really a thing anymore maybe it is let's say it's a Netflix it's a Netflix uh just keep it 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:52.500 as books sure it's one of these books that used to exist 00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:55.919 um and if you you by reading through the book and then being like hmm these are 00:04:54.479 --> 00:05:01.919 the options presented to me by this person that actually generated something 00:04:57.479 --> 00:05:03.840 and I'm gonna choose this one and 00:05:01.919 --> 00:05:09.720 okay now you're going along this path but that doesn't mean that you generated 00:05:05.880 --> 00:05:11.699 that story you just put in an input 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:16.259 you're putting in some inputs to some system the system is generating right 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:22.440 but so this system just has Myriad just in just infinitely more inputs and even 00:05:18.840 --> 00:05:24.300 more problematically uh the system is 00:05:22.440 --> 00:05:28.199 based on work that was actually originally created by real human artists 00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:34.080 well this is a really interesting part of it yeah so it's like 00:05:31.919 --> 00:05:38.820 I you know I don't want to say like I'm not trying to be here being like this 00:05:35.580 --> 00:05:40.139 new technology that is you know uh I'm 00:05:38.820 --> 00:05:43.440 not trying to hate on like new technology just because it's new but I 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:47.039 think that like while it is exciting and while it is a 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:51.000 very interesting technology that we should explore I think that right now 00:05:48.840 --> 00:05:54.060 it's kind of like the wild west where there isn't any regulation people are 00:05:52.979 --> 00:05:58.380 still asking these questions we're having a talk like right now talking 00:05:55.979 --> 00:06:01.800 about it uh so we need to have these conversations and then like break it 00:06:00.479 --> 00:06:07.680 down into what does this mean for copyright what does this mean for the 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:10.860 future of artistry as like a career or even competitions or even competitions 00:06:09.479 --> 00:06:15.000 like do you have to film yourself for creating the art now and submit that as 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:19.979 well as your competition which is what package which is what one person on a on 00:06:16.979 --> 00:06:23.039 a Reddit thread suggested in in response 00:06:19.979 --> 00:06:25.800 to this fact that this guy like won this 00:06:23.039 --> 00:06:29.819 art competition using AI art and the key detail is that he did not 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:33.600 it's the the details seem a little murky right now but at least 00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:37.979 some of the judges have said that they didn't know it was AI art and he has 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:41.759 said himself that he's like oh what I needed to let them know that was in the 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:45.000 vice article I believe at the at the bottom 00:06:43.500 --> 00:06:50.360 um I mean I don't know anything about this person's intentions but it's pretty obvious that there wasn't the spirit of 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:54.960 the competition exactly exactly I mean I can understand 00:06:53.460 --> 00:07:01.560 this is almost like a form of performance art like it's a stunt exactly exactly I can understand him 00:06:58.979 --> 00:07:06.120 saying you know okay I'm gonna I'm gonna I want to bring attention to this yeah I 00:07:03.780 --> 00:07:10.979 want to show what this tool mid-journey can do so I'm going to stealthily enter 00:07:08.280 --> 00:07:16.740 uh with my AI art and then when I win I'm gonna be like haha look at this I 00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:19.620 this is actually a i I are now I've started a conversation and now we're 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:23.340 talking about this but then I think what he should have done is 00:07:21.840 --> 00:07:26.580 be like okay but I didn't actually win your surprise money yeah yeah because 00:07:25.380 --> 00:07:32.460 now you have these people who actually created Art losing and they're like 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:36.900 I think that makes it way crappier that makes it way stinkier of a situation 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:40.500 because it's a stinky stinky because there are people who are outraged and 00:07:38.280 --> 00:07:43.380 they're and they're disappointed that the world's going this way and they're 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:49.139 worried about the future and what this means for artists around the world and the volume of art that will be created 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:55.319 by humans going forward and it's kind of dystopian but it that that dystopian 00:07:52.919 --> 00:07:58.380 Viewpoint is greatly enhanced by people being crappy like this exactly what do 00:07:57.479 --> 00:08:01.919 you mean this is valid just like everyone else like yeah no dude I think 00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:06.120 that like they're they're it happened there's 00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:11.240 always this pushback against hard backlash right when something cool 00:08:08.280 --> 00:08:15.000 happens like say blockchain technology and people are like okay cool we're 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:20.580 building this technology in the early days it's like oh this enter the scammers enter the scammers and the pump 00:08:18.419 --> 00:08:24.240 and dumpers and now the whole they're you know there's all these scams out 00:08:22.440 --> 00:08:27.900 there and there's a huge backlash of being like cryptocurrency is evil and 00:08:26.340 --> 00:08:30.840 bad and it should never be used and it can only be used for as it's pump enough 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:34.200 stuff and then you have people being like okay wait but remember in the early 00:08:32.880 --> 00:08:37.860 days there was this promise and we could use it for that still but the well is 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:40.440 poisoned yeah and I think that's happening a little bit with air right 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:44.700 it's going to be a way different outcome though because the AI art is just it's 00:08:43.140 --> 00:08:48.420 much it's simpler it's more straightforward the future is here now 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:53.399 deal with it now you know what I mean like uh all graphic artists 00:08:51.300 --> 00:08:58.440 you're in trouble right within the next two years uh stock imagery sites you're 00:08:56.640 --> 00:09:02.700 in trouble yeah this is going to upend Industries and change laws for sure you 00:09:00.540 --> 00:09:07.380 know and and it's and it's moving super rapidly like this technology at the 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:12.600 beginning of this year was super super rudimentary and it wasn't available and 00:09:09.420 --> 00:09:14.279 then open AI released Dolly too uh 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:17.760 Google released their thing that I forget what it's called think Imogen I 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:22.560 think it's called and now you go and there's lists of like the 10 coolest uh 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:27.180 era well it's getting even crazier because Dolly had some built-in kind of 00:09:25.140 --> 00:09:32.459 filters where you couldn't do you can't do a human's face right you can't you 00:09:29.640 --> 00:09:37.140 can't do pornography right uh whereas stability AI yeah stable diffusion yeah 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:42.779 it is release open source it has some filters 00:09:39.779 --> 00:09:44.459 that are enabled by default to that's 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:47.459 just so you don't type something in and get a result that's pornographic and 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:51.420 you're like oh I didn't want that right but you can disable this filter 00:09:49.740 --> 00:09:55.380 and you can you can create celebrity likenesses you can make like I've seen a 00:09:53.459 --> 00:09:58.440 bunch of pictures of Charlize Theron's face I knew it was her there was no 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:04.860 label saying it was Charlize Theron yeah I could tell it's her in multiple Styles and angles right uh and so it's 00:10:02.640 --> 00:10:10.320 what does this mean yeah exactly this is you can run this on your desktop GPU 00:10:08.160 --> 00:10:13.380 it's only supports NVIDIA gpus right now but I don't have to rely on a cloud 00:10:11.880 --> 00:10:17.100 service for this yeah I mean like when deep fakes first came out people were 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:20.820 like oh my gosh people are using their gpus to like run these computations and 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:24.360 do it at home and that was one thing because if you didn't really have access 00:10:22.380 --> 00:10:28.800 to the hardware to like run those simulations over and over uh or run 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:32.459 those computations then you wouldn't be able to make deep fakes but now all of 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:36.300 these air generators are on the web you can just go to a URL and put in a prompt 00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:39.899 and get images and so this is a TechCrunch article talking about what we 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:45.420 were the the generator we were just mentioning stable diffusion 00:10:42.300 --> 00:10:48.480 um I think it's it's in a program called 00:10:45.420 --> 00:10:50.940 dream AI or something I forget what it's 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:56.519 called Uh but you know people are using it to make porn of existing people and 00:10:54.660 --> 00:11:00.839 upload it to 4chan lovely site it's and it's just images 00:10:59.040 --> 00:11:04.440 for Now what's the difference with defects this is just images for now not 00:11:02.579 --> 00:11:08.579 video but it'll be video within two or three for sure for sure I mean yeah like 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:12.000 there's there's deep fake videos and yeah that I'm sure there will be 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:16.320 generators uh quite soon like have you watched like that really low quality 00:11:13.880 --> 00:11:20.700 animated children's content on YouTube like not to throw a little baby bum 00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:25.500 under the bus but little baby bum is just it's nursery rhyme songs with just 00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:29.160 like pretty bad animation a lot of 3D animation along with it and kids love it 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:32.160 my kid watched it for a year and a half straight every day all day like just 00:11:30.959 --> 00:11:39.000 love it um in the future you could potentially just play the song and just have the 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:42.000 animation generated and just put that onto your YouTube channel even less work 00:11:40.680 --> 00:11:45.959 and you can monetize that YouTube channel and get rich very easily yeah I 00:11:44.339 --> 00:11:51.000 don't doubt that that that is the future I mean uh that's video stuff uh and we 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:54.959 have to watch out for that coming but I mean yeah the still images are being 00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:59.339 used right now this is an Atlantic article from earlier this month I love 00:11:57.420 --> 00:12:04.260 the Atlantic I I do as well you subscribe no no you should uh but I when 00:12:02.760 --> 00:12:10.140 people send a link and it's an Atlantic link I'm like okay I'm out of taste 00:12:07.620 --> 00:12:14.040 anyway what's in the article um this uh you know it's a it's a regular article 00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:18.180 no AI was uh involved in the creation of the words but that's a that's a 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:21.959 mid-journey created image uh it says the prompt was Alex Jones inside an American 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:25.800 office under fluorescent lights that's the perfect use for that yeah and there 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:29.399 goes the graphic designer's job right so that is something that would be 00:12:27.420 --> 00:12:34.380 traditionally I mean yeah this is like a perfect example like it's real world 00:12:30.899 --> 00:12:36.120 this is a lost gig I think graphic 00:12:34.380 --> 00:12:39.600 designers will continue to exist and I think they will use these tools you know 00:12:37.920 --> 00:12:42.180 when you're specking out a job you're probably going to go all right well 00:12:40.920 --> 00:12:46.200 here's five different things that I created in the last 10 minutes 00:12:44.459 --> 00:12:49.680 um using one of these tools right uh which one of you like right you like 00:12:48.060 --> 00:12:52.620 this one okay now I'll go and make a better version of that exactly because a 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:56.160 lot of these things when you zoom in they're actually not that nice so you 00:12:54.720 --> 00:13:02.040 might not use it for like your corporate logo or something like that although there are Services which use AI to 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:06.000 generate logos you put in like your company name some details about you your 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:11.220 industry uh style them you maybe want and they will create AI created logo for 00:13:09.660 --> 00:13:15.180 you and I'm sure like there are options and then I'm sure you can yeah depending 00:13:12.839 --> 00:13:18.300 on that AI like who has the copyright because with Dali Dali retains the 00:13:17.160 --> 00:13:24.360 copyright to the images that you generate right which is weird kind of 00:13:21.060 --> 00:13:25.860 dolly dolly retains yeah it does yeah 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.680 not you see but that's the thing is that like 00:13:27.540 --> 00:13:33.540 should they have copyright at all because what is Dolly trained on they're trained on all of these other artists 00:13:32.160 --> 00:13:38.880 that initially created the work the whole internet like it's just a general web scrape of paid content like 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:42.240 shutterstocking you need to have a subscription and then they just take 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:46.139 those billions of things and monetize it while putting Shutterstock out of 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:50.279 business oh my God that's totally not fair I think in the future it could be 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:54.540 possible that anyone who wants to uh create one of these models using a 00:13:52.380 --> 00:14:00.120 corpus of imagery will have to license all that imagery to feed the model but 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:04.440 like how do you enforce that yeah I mean we need regulation which is 00:14:02.760 --> 00:14:07.860 it which is kind of it's funny because this is like on The 00:14:06.300 --> 00:14:13.019 Cutting Edge of what's going on right now and to even think about 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:18.740 to even think about how long it'll be before a bunch of old people in you know 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:22.860 the US Congress or senate or elsewhere uh start to like become familiar with 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:26.339 this as a phenomenon and then craft legislation around it it's gonna be a 00:14:24.660 --> 00:14:30.360 while yeah it's not gonna happen and well it could happen it'll just be a 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:36.060 couple years yeah it's gonna be a rocky road there's other legal aspects as well 00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:38.220 like you can create a artwork of a 00:14:36.060 --> 00:14:43.980 celebrity space you could sell a painting of Morgan Freeman and could I 00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:47.040 yes but it's kind of like fair use it's a gray you have to make like an argument 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:52.380 for it a little bit so for example if you if you created a work where the the 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:56.160 work was completely just like like a photo like look like a photo of Morgan 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:59.459 Freeman then uh you probably have to get the permission to sell that but if you 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:03.360 created a work like an Andy Warhol style where you've the work isn't just that 00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:09.959 it's his photo it's not just his likeness that makes the work cool it's that you stylized it right and it came 00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:13.740 from raw materials like paint uh then you don't even need to get this person's 00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:16.860 permission especially if it's just a one-off like you're you're making 00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:21.540 caricatures or something on the street on Vegas like rather than making this 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:25.079 one RP so I'm gonna make a bazillion up and sell them all right if you if you 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:28.500 were doing that with a picture of Morgan Freeman's face you'd probably run into 00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:33.060 some sort of yeah it's similar to fair use in that one of the pillars of it is 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:37.199 does it materially impact that person's ability to monetize their likeness right 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:40.260 right right right if you make one painting of Morgan Freeman and sell it 00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:44.040 to one person I mean depending on how expensive it is 00:15:42.180 --> 00:15:49.560 maybe Morgan Freeman would want would be like hey wait it's a question because 00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:52.019 now you've got this thing that can 00:15:49.560 --> 00:15:56.760 create many thousands of images of Morgan Freeman right but it's only 00:15:53.699 --> 00:15:58.560 creating them you made one and sold it 00:15:56.760 --> 00:16:01.199 and that it was inconsequential yeah because Riley just sold one so Morgan 00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:06.000 Freeman's not gonna sell no one's no Morgan Freeman's not gonna sue you yeah no one's paying millions of dollars of 00:16:04.079 --> 00:16:09.420 art for my art but what if millions of individuals each make their own Morgan 00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:12.420 Freeman thing so it does materially impact his ability to monetize his 00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:17.339 likeness right but there's no individual to attack as each individual only sold 00:16:14.040 --> 00:16:18.839 at once so do you attack the open source 00:16:17.339 --> 00:16:26.040 well honestly that's kind of the question we're we're faced with here because because these AI generators are 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:29.699 mass producing now now that a million people millions of people have access to 00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:33.660 these online they sign up for the wait list there's there's not even like the 00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:36.899 like the big ones the really good ones you have to sign up like Dolly you had 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:41.519 to register for and wait until you get access stable diffusion well same thing 00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:46.320 but they publicly released it now stable yeah it's publicly released there are 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:49.980 there's there's tens of these dozens of these more uh online that you can just 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:54.000 go to a URL and put it in you don't need to wait at all so now there are millions 00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:59.519 of people potentially using these are art generators to generate 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:02.040 countless works of art based on whatever 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:05.100 yeah original art pieces by human people yeah that's the other thing because 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:09.959 they're not coming from raw material yeah it's not like your paint on the canvas the materials are coming from 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:14.459 these other presumably copyrighted oftentimes I just had a I just I just 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:18.600 had a conversation with with David uh prior to this about 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:23.339 uh you know whether this is like plagiarism or not and I'm like well okay 00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:28.919 so it's not plagiarism because you're using these people's art as sort of like 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:31.080 a training tool for AI to generate 00:17:28.919 --> 00:17:34.980 something new right so like that's if that's if plagiarism is just copying it 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:39.419 you know that's on one end of the spectrum and on the other side maybe is 00:17:37.260 --> 00:17:44.039 you know looking at it from the frame of when you paint you're using materials 00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:49.380 that you didn't make from scratch you know you're buying these this existing 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.120 pigment and uh you know making something 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:54.419 completely new from it but you didn't make it completely from scratch there's 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:58.380 other people's work going into that as well so like that's on the other end of 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:02.580 the spectrum and AI art is kind of somewhere in the middle but 00:18:00.360 --> 00:18:06.480 I'm inclined to put it a little bit more towards plagiarism it's not plagiarism 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:11.520 well it's all arbitrary it all comes down to the abilities of the entity you 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:17.400 know it's not plagiarism if I do a perfect replica of a um uh starry night 00:18:14.820 --> 00:18:21.960 because yeah obviously I was influenced by the original work and then I had to 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:25.440 do all this analog very high skill work to like mix the paint correctly right 00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:30.780 and years of skill for me to actually render it yeah yeah but all that stuff 00:18:28.679 --> 00:18:35.220 is as trivial to a machine right so it's just it's only because the 00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:40.140 entity in question the machine is better at doing it than you are but that's but 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:43.440 like I guess that's the 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:46.679 that's the question is there value in a 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:49.260 machine learning to do this skill should 00:18:46.679 --> 00:18:54.780 we like because it's not an agent it's not a conscious agent I mean according 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:57.120 to not according to boys when you use 00:18:54.780 --> 00:19:01.260 mid mid Journey you're interacting with a bot it's not like you're on a Google 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:05.100 local page with a search bar you're in Discord and you're interacting with the 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:08.940 bot you type the prompt you want it returns an image and then you can say 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:11.700 make more of them or change it in this way and it's like 00:19:10.679 --> 00:19:16.020 you're having a conversation with an artist in a way and you're collaborating you're kind of collaborating but that's 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:21.539 just an artifice that's not the bot is just a a a a window into using the 00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:26.580 service available on yeah for sure for now soon it'll be Scarlett Johansson 00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:27.840 soon they'll add actual like AI chat bot 00:19:26.580 --> 00:19:32.640 functionality in there and then you're talking to it'll be very weird through 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:38.100 the AI yes and they're like okay so when you say a bird flying over a ship do you 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:41.360 mean like a big ship or like a little ship like this is the AI talking to you 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:46.140 about it yeah and then make that by voice if we like 00:19:43.860 --> 00:19:50.280 combine these Technologies yes because that's even scarier like it's one thing 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:54.980 to say all right I work in a I work in an auto Factory a car factory and 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:59.280 they're replacing my you know job screwing in these rivets with a with a 00:19:57.539 --> 00:20:03.840 robot robotic ARM that's one thing another thing is saying okay you have 00:20:01.919 --> 00:20:08.940 this creative career you thought you were safe from the AI for a while but 00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:15.480 now literally your entire job like consultation uh sample work for for 00:20:12.840 --> 00:20:19.140 inspiration or whatever uh you know any other type of parameters that you would 00:20:16.860 --> 00:20:23.039 discuss with a person ahead of time you can do with AI because we have this 00:20:20.820 --> 00:20:27.600 language AIS and then we also have these art generating AIS yeah so even if me 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:30.900 even if AI doesn't achieve this like General sentience that we're that that 00:20:29.580 --> 00:20:35.460 is like far in the future with Singularity et cetera Etc even if we 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:40.140 don't achieve that it's like we're functionally going to achieve 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:44.100 something very similar to it because of all these other systems that are coming 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:48.600 together yeah scary well it begs the question like what happens to artists so 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:50.400 does it mean that you've got it I think 00:20:48.600 --> 00:20:54.179 it look it'll stratify it like it'll make uh it'll make it more disparate 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:58.200 like you'll have billionaires and impoverished people uh so to speak 00:20:55.980 --> 00:21:01.440 you'll you'll have the artists or graphic designers who are only using 00:20:59.520 --> 00:21:06.120 these tools and you'll have the like the very high level highly skilled artists 00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:12.660 um but the I mean this I guess it's good to be one 00:21:09.600 --> 00:21:15.059 of them but they'll be few they'll be so 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:19.200 few of them right yeah well uh you know as this uh this is was a reply in the 00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:24.780 original tweet where someone kind of like whistled blue on this guy uh 00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:26.400 bragging about his his achievement uh 00:21:24.780 --> 00:21:29.940 Omni Morpho on Twitter says we're watching the death of artistry unfold 00:21:27.840 --> 00:21:32.880 right before our eyes um even high skilled jobs you know 00:21:31.679 --> 00:21:38.640 you're saying oh there will be some high skilled artists but like even those guys I mean maybe they'll be like a handful 00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:44.159 you know like literally the thing you have to think about though is the 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:47.400 convergence or the homogenization of of 00:21:44.159 --> 00:21:50.340 art because right now all of these 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:54.480 generators are using a data set that is Virgin that is created by humans all the 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:58.740 all the info that's feeding them was photographs taken by humans art pieces 00:21:56.520 --> 00:22:03.419 drawn by humans but now that millions of pieces are coming out as output from 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:09.299 these generators that means the internet at large is is growing in its proportion 00:22:06.600 --> 00:22:12.720 of stuff that was made by robots right and so if that continues to expand to 00:22:11.520 --> 00:22:18.720 the point where like half the stuff of the internet was made by robots yeah then when the next the next AI is 00:22:16.320 --> 00:22:24.059 programmed and fed into it is outputs from robots it'll become more and more 00:22:21.419 --> 00:22:27.900 like it's self-referential yeah this is this was Horst I was talking to him 00:22:25.620 --> 00:22:33.299 before as well and he specifically asked me to bring this up like he he likened 00:22:30.360 --> 00:22:37.520 it to re-encoding videos the more that you re-encode the same video file the 00:22:35.159 --> 00:22:42.179 more the quality to grades so it's like eventually are these AI art generators 00:22:40.620 --> 00:22:47.820 just going to be you know feeding off themselves again and again and again until it's just like a blurry mess uh so 00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:52.740 I guess I don't think that I think I mean like stylistically like to me I 00:22:49.919 --> 00:22:55.740 liken it as um I this is a pet Theory I guess it won't it won't exactly sorry it 00:22:54.120 --> 00:23:00.240 won't like yeah it won't be the same as like the resolution is worse but maybe 00:22:58.500 --> 00:23:04.080 it would be like um Hollywood taking over the world and all film is just like 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:07.500 every movie has to be like an MCU movie or everyone has to do their makeup like 00:23:05.820 --> 00:23:10.559 Kim Kardashian because we all now we all use Instagram and we all look at that 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:17.039 one celebrity and we all want that face yeah so then all the dado will just make 00:23:13.080 --> 00:23:19.020 this kind of art so therefore maybe the 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:22.080 last remaining highly skilled artists will be the wackiest artists who are 00:23:20.580 --> 00:23:26.340 making the most original kind of stuff because it just looks so different from 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:33.480 what is generated from the AI you know what it might actually happen is uh 00:23:29.179 --> 00:23:34.860 carsonization car Carson as I answer 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:40.440 nope carsonization 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:45.720 what is it it's the phenomenon of uh the the phenomenon wherein uh organisms 00:23:43.340 --> 00:23:49.510 multiple branches of organisms on evolutionary Pathways uh all 00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:53.250 become crabs 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:58.559 like we're going back to crab animals 00:23:56.520 --> 00:24:01.679 keep evolving into crabs and scientists well this one says scientists don't know 00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:05.940 why but they do know why it's because it's like a advantageous that's the word 00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:09.720 in some way um so maybe like you know we'll have the 00:24:07.919 --> 00:24:14.039 equivalent of uh of everything going back to crab all AIS 00:24:12.179 --> 00:24:17.360 eventually all AI music generators eventually create crab raid 00:24:21.780 --> 00:24:28.380 oh speaking of which we didn't even I mean real quick uh this isn't like 00:24:25.919 --> 00:24:33.419 entirely a new phenomenon they've been doing this with with music for some time 00:24:30.179 --> 00:24:35.940 now uh in that they feed in music to an 00:24:33.419 --> 00:24:40.620 AI it generates like Melodies and rhythms and stuff and in some cases it 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:43.799 generates the audio directly but most of the time it doesn't sound very good so 00:24:42.419 --> 00:24:47.400 what they'll do instead is they'll feed music into like they'll say we want a 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:51.600 Jimi Hendrix Style song they'll feed a million Jimi Hendrix songs to an AI and 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:55.679 it'll make midi data or like sheet music and then the humans will recreate it 00:24:53.580 --> 00:24:58.919 with like and in some cases they make like it right writes lyrics and 00:24:57.299 --> 00:25:02.280 everything as well but then humans will do other people share my opinion that 00:25:00.780 --> 00:25:06.120 I'm less bothered by this I think this is less bothersome and the reason is 00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:11.580 popular music can't get any worse exactly I I think that I think that 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:14.159 music is I mean that's a whole nother discussion I feel like we probably 00:25:12.840 --> 00:25:20.580 shouldn't get into it no it doesn't bother me that much but I will say that 00:25:16.020 --> 00:25:23.460 like you know it seems like with music 00:25:20.580 --> 00:25:27.360 human generated art will human generated music will always be more important to 00:25:25.679 --> 00:25:30.360 people I don't think like I think because I think part of that is like 00:25:28.919 --> 00:25:33.779 sort of the personality the cult of personality around like an artist if you 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:37.740 like like their music you're gonna be like wow I kind of want to listen to 00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:40.500 more of their music if it's an AI ai's gonna have to generate some very 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:45.900 personal histories in the lyrics yeah like are people gonna go to 00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:49.080 a concert no because the music live music is already differentiated from 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:54.299 recorded music you go to see live music you go you go to see the phenomenon of 00:25:51.419 --> 00:25:57.960 this well but then in in the in the age of ADM 00:25:55.620 --> 00:26:01.799 people that you don't go there to see that you're not going there to do 00:25:59.159 --> 00:26:06.120 performance sure but but I mean like you know more people are going to a show by 00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:10.559 I don't even know what the big EDM guy is now but like a few years ago maybe it 00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:15.179 was dead mouse like people go to the show because it's oh it's it's that guy 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:19.140 that I like and not because the music is particularly really good it's because 00:26:17.159 --> 00:26:21.960 you liked a few of their music their tracks and so now like you have this 00:26:20.520 --> 00:26:25.200 idea in their head in your head yeah we're not gonna do that for AI no no 00:26:23.760 --> 00:26:30.299 one's dreaming for art like no one's going or maybe it will I mean V tubers 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:32.279 are a thing uh Miku Miku from uh 00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:36.360 Vocaloid or whatever there's these like you know virtual Idols in Japan and 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:43.380 whatnot they go on stage as a hologram they're dancing people are like I'm I'm 00:26:38.820 --> 00:26:45.120 a fan of this Idol person oh and if 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:48.960 there was just an AI but at the same but at the end of the day if you really 00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:52.080 wanted like a distinct sound there would have to be some sort of human input but 00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:55.679 that's not even true I'd take it back well actually because far in the future 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:59.159 maybe there is like an AI that was like tuned with specific parameters and 00:26:57.120 --> 00:27:03.059 people were like I'm a fan or you just around us you randomize the parameters 00:27:01.020 --> 00:27:07.559 like they're part of uh stability diffusion is you can you can make 00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:10.860 derivative products with it yeah as long as the license gets passed down you can 00:27:09.659 --> 00:27:15.240 make derivative products and you can tune some parameters such that the art 00:27:13.620 --> 00:27:18.980 that it creates is more of a certain style for sure and there's there's 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:23.820 Commercial Services that do that like sound full I just found this like right 00:27:21.419 --> 00:27:26.640 before we card reader yeah yeah there's a bunch of services like this but like 00:27:25.260 --> 00:27:31.799 sound full you know you start in there you you uh you know you you choose a 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:35.580 genre you customize it you like choose a beat you choose some instruments they're 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:39.120 all pre-recorded pre-done and then you can like you know put it together and 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:43.440 make something like quote unquote new you could make like a Nine Inch Nails AI 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:47.640 you're like you really loves this mode and this interval use these instruments 00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:51.600 yeah whatever it puts out will sound nailsy exactly exactly and the same 00:27:49.919 --> 00:27:56.460 thing can happen with visual art too oh man and if that's just randomized people 00:27:53.760 --> 00:28:01.140 could become fans of certain certain AIS that they really like their style right 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:03.960 okay so last question and then we're done 00:28:01.860 --> 00:28:06.720 I know you really really hate this James you want to go I gotta get out of here 00:28:06.059 --> 00:28:13.740 um what do you think should be the situation what should we head 00:28:11.159 --> 00:28:19.260 towards as a society when it comes to like AI generated art should should we 00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:24.480 respect AI generated art as like you know on a somewhat equal playing 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:26.279 field or should it be like it should it 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:31.820 be as as um denormalized or de-specialized as you 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:37.620 know I don't know some some some some commodity that you can like Mass produce 00:28:34.260 --> 00:28:40.140 no problem I generally think uh like the 00:28:37.620 --> 00:28:43.320 technology is here so deal with it kind of approach like there's no we shouldn't 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:46.980 be trying to stop this or slow it down we have to just adapt the toothpaste is 00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:50.880 out of the tube for a lot of this stuff in terms of they already made this AI 00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:54.840 they already scraped these copyrighted images sorry Getty 00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:57.720 um but in terms of how we conceptualize it how we think of 00:28:56.700 --> 00:29:02.460 it um I think that it is similar to VFX 00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:04.380 you watch a movie has great VFX you're like wow that was very enjoyable to 00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:10.320 watch or and then you watch another movie and you go yeah that wasn't that crazy but 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:13.679 you know they did all the stunts that's real that was all practical they 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.480 actually climbed that building he actually jumped from that train when you 00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:22.559 know that a human did it you give it this extra level like it gets it earns 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:27.360 your respects in this other layer I think we're just gonna have to do with art hey that's a nice painting and wow a 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:33.000 human did that from scratch that's amazing I don't see that that often oh 00:29:30.419 --> 00:29:36.179 you're gonna you think the the norm is going to be like AI art is ubiquitous 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:40.500 and it's it's everything but then when there's something extra special yeah 00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:45.120 because this just this is like anything else this is democratizes Art more you 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:49.440 know I I suck at drawing but now I can make this so I can it's like making 00:29:47.159 --> 00:29:53.039 music on your laptop so it's going to be everywhere it's going to take over I 00:29:51.659 --> 00:29:57.480 don't think it's like making music on your laptop because when because for 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:01.500 that it's like okay somebody else recorded an instrument and gave you all 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:05.159 this data that you can then manipulate using MIDI files everywhere you see 00:30:03.179 --> 00:30:08.820 stock photos today you're gonna see AI generated art when I make a Squarespace 00:30:06.899 --> 00:30:13.500 website I'm going to use original as original as a descriptive reality yes 00:30:11.760 --> 00:30:17.820 that's that's going to be true but I think I'm saying that uh you know from a 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:22.140 normative framework it's not this is not the same as using 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:27.779 like uh it's been a while since I did since I 00:30:25.679 --> 00:30:30.840 meddled in uh electronic music making I forget what the actual files are called 00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:34.980 but like the digital sounds you're using a digital sound of a trombone and you 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.360 press a key and it makes the sound the trombone sound for that note 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:43.919 that's completely different because you're still generating the data you're 00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:48.419 still doing it by hand right I think that with AI art it should be 00:30:46.679 --> 00:30:54.899 the case that if you are an artist and you want your 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:58.620 art to be included in these models you can 00:30:55.740 --> 00:31:03.539 submit them to the database and there should be a requirement that they 00:31:01.020 --> 00:31:07.500 uh you know pay you royalties and I know that the copy like our 00:31:05.159 --> 00:31:11.940 copyright system has lots of problems it is not perfect and that like this is 00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:15.840 gonna go along with a much needed you know reform of how we deal with 00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:19.559 copyright in general in the west we might just get rid of it just go more 00:31:17.760 --> 00:31:24.120 China style it's like it's irrelevant now the pace of innovation is just so 00:31:21.659 --> 00:31:27.000 fast that it well I think that it's going to be it's going to be that way 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:31.440 for a while as we're in the wild west here but I think that in a few years as 00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:36.899 this becomes more and more normalized there's going to be people asking for 00:31:34.679 --> 00:31:41.340 you know to save artists in some way because they don't make money already if 00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:44.880 this is going if this continues with no regulation 00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:49.320 artists are out of a job they're dead 00:31:46.320 --> 00:31:51.179 rip rip and rip to this episode because 00:31:49.320 --> 00:31:54.059 James I just like to give you your last word 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:58.980 you're good you want the last word that's the last word it's rip 00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:04.260 you took it actually so that's your word my last word is thanks for watching talk 00:32:02.580 --> 00:32:08.880 link we'll we'll be back we can have these go too long rip Riley subscribe to 00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:12.419 techlinked subscribe to they're just movies 00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:15.380 see you later thank you for having me