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uh everyone's confused about the iPad except for me

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the main problem with iPads is that they're dumb

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that's what I think Mac Address guy Jonathan Horst

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what do you I think you don't understand iPads okay it's quite interesting

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because from what I gather your character on LTT is like has the iPad

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guy you did all the videos where you used the iPad yeah as a computer okay I

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I need to clarify that I don't think iPads are dumb but I think that Apple's

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approach to iPads is like at the same

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time cool and confusing and dumb does that make sense I think you're

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wrong okay I but also you think that you think they've had a perfect approach no

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no I know I think you're wrong but also right to give some context to this uh

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this little argument that we're having uh Apple released the 10th gen iPad and

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it's the you know they did the same thing where they updated with the kind

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of like iPad pro-ish squared off Square

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design images yeah uh while still you

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know hampering its ability to be it's uh

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this kind of cool new iPad OS powered

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desktop capable capabilities device uh

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which annoys me this is the other interesting thing I'm using the keyboard

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dock the sorry the magic keyboard folio

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whatever and you're using the regular

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folder yeah folio because you think that the iPad should be and remain a touch

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first first device device I made a whole video about it uh is one of of my

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earliest videos here at Mac Address about how the Mac shouldn't have a touch

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screen and the iPad has a touch screen and this is these are this is a good

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line to to have I mean the added mouse support to uh the iPad but that's

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because their their argument for not adding touch support to the Mac means

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that that has to happen but oh right

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because they said when the iPad or sorry when the MacBook Air came when they

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redesigned in 2010 that was kind of when touch screens on laptops were a new

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thing and they addressed it in the keynote they're like no one wants to reach their hands up

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that's just not that's literally what they said well which makes a lot of

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sense you know like I feel like I really loved when they added the touchpad

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because the iPad is a you know laptop

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sized screen it's a small laptop size screen uh in most models I mean the 12.9

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inch that's a 13 inch laptop basically and and so when I was making my LTT

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videos reviewing the iPad pros and all these like you know iterative changes

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that they were making to iPad OS to make it more like a desktop operating system

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that was it was that was that was exciting to me and I saw it when they

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when they said when they added the touchpad I was like great this is this

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makes sense yes no one wants to touch the screen that's true and so we need

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the touchpad we need that mouse support we need that desktop those desktops because of just the just because this is

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a touch versus device adding the keyboard to it there was a benefit to

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not having the mouse that's what I'm saying but I don't usually I don't think

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that the iPad needs a mouse okay so let's take a step back let's take a look

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because because we have different you know maybe you've

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been able to pick up on this viewer but we have different philosophies about

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about what Apple has been and should be doing with their

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products so so we have a situation where we have macOS uh it's a desktop

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operating system and Windows was a desktop operating system they were both

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yes desktop operations at one point

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you know touch devices started showing up Apple released the iPad tablets were

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a big thing and Windows decided Microsoft decided to take Windows in a

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touch Direction they're like we're gonna we're gonna do Windows 8 and we're gonna

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make all the icons big and make the

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desktop situation worse and kind of force people into a touch touch you uh

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how did that go interface it went horribly and everyone hated it and

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everyone hated Windows 8 and they were like okay okay let's take a step back

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they thought about it they released Windows 8.1 which kind of like rolled

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back a lot of the like touch forcing touch uh uh features and then they

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released Windows 10 what was Windows 10 Windows 10 was great it was a great

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synthesis they made a mistake they took a step back they thought about it again

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and they released Windows 10. everyone was happy for Windows 10 in terms of the

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interface so they were there were still some like it there's still some things

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that people didn't like about you know the data collection and all this stuff and they were like I don't think I don't

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remember there being like performance issues but you know there's stuff with the release of any everything Windows 10

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was the operating system they should have released with Windows 8 yes yeah so

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Windows 10 was great there were touch Windows 10 devices there were two in

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ones people could use it as a tablet or a computer or whatever but what did

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Apple do I have hold on I have a question for you

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did you ever use tablet mode in Windows 10. ever have you ever well I haven't

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really thought I haven't really used a two-in-one for

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any length of time I mean I think I maybe I've reviewed one or two at what

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are we arguing then what do you mean I wait I have a laptop I have a surface

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laptop with a touch screen I use it sometimes not all the time in the in the

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in the positions I made you do no I don't hold it I don't hold it remember

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the video oh right yeah yeah I was holding it we're gonna have to find that

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video but um no I don't use it like like a touch first device but every once in a

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while if I want to like zoom in on a picture or something so I actually

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somehow cut the first little bit of the original

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iPad introduction when Steve Jobs was saying like what is the iPad for and it

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was like it needs to be better at these specific things and it was internet

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browsing email video watching photo viewing

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ebooks and music those are the things

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that he listed out that iPad should be in it yeah so like really basic stuff

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like the most like the the least you can do right and it was a lot about content

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consumption and a lot of people were I guess confused with the iPad at the time

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and a little kind of flummoxed about it because it felt like a big iPhone and

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and when it was obstensively was though you could argue in terms of the history

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of Apple the iPhone was a small iPad because that's actually how the ideas

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went but anyway yes oh oh they they came they were working on they were working

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on the iPad and then realized we should do these are great ideas that would work

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on a phone and then pivoted to the phone and then did the and then came back to

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the app that's interesting now those criticisms of the iPad in those

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early days of it being consumption device are valid and in some cases still

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are valid so the question was like well what could

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you do with an iPad to make it more I guess productive

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um and so Apple in the next year they released the iWork Suite which nobody

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bought uh and then there was GarageBand and iMovie and they're really basic kind

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of kitty versions of those apps but you could do stuff now on it and there's

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some keyboard accessories and stuff like that still kind of still kind of

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confused but uh since then the iPad has grown

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profoundly in functionality it has and I

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think that's really impressive and when I've been doing iPad videos and talking

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to people uh normal people who use iPads they do integrate it into their lives in

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really amazing ways and they're using it a lot and I think the biggest surprise

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for me too is when I bought my first iPad which was an iPad 3.

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um this is now like a decade ago I too

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was a little skeptical about this consumption device like why would I need

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this but I used it all the time it was like the most used computer when I was

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at home and it's just because it's a it's a kid can walk around with it yeah

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and can Lounge on the couch and use yeah if I use a laptop I Lounge on the couch

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and use a laptop really bad for ergonomics right a lot of

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stuff's like on my chest so so you're saying that the strength of the iPad is

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in its difference from a laptop or a desktop yeah absolutely right that's the

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whole point okay there's something very very important to point out here after

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today okay now now here's where I'm

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coming at it from okay so Apple has stated I forget when they stated this

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but I think I think when they launched the original iPad they said something

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like imagine a future where it's just or

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maybe it was the iPad Pro they were like where there's there's a single piece of

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glass and it's your it's the Hub it's like it's like you're so it's like a

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Microsoft concept video this is this not an apple thing I

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thought there was an apple thing where they said like this a single piece of glass for your computer or whatever

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maybe I'll Google it but I'm not going to do that it sounds like a Microsoft

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concept video from 2000 into three no way it's definitely anyway go on

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um anyways so if if apple is like all right our our vision for the future of

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computing is to have this like touch friendly glass like single pane of thing

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that you can like do anything with you know it has advanced capabilities but

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you don't need to use that all the time it it can be a simple device as well if

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they want to do that then they need to

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build out iPad OS uh into like more of a

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capable desktop operating system which they've been doing and I think that like

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this is what's so frustrating to me about this 10th gen iPad is because they

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added all these cool things to the iPad pros and the iPad Air uh they've got now

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finally support for external monitors that can like fill the whole screen and

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act as a actual second display play instead of just dual duplicating it

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there because I got to do the ShortCircuit for this 10th gen iPad but this

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doesn't this one doesn't support page manager is only available to M1 and

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above powered iPads okay um there was a lot of complaining about

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that um and so there's it might they might have stayed manager to a 14 powered

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iPads which would include this in the previous generation error however I

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think in that case they're still going to limit it only to on the iPad screen

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as opposed to external uh an external screen what and then no that they're

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going to do that don't worry because stage manager on external screen not

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that great really really not a fun experience why because in some apps you

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grab the corner and it resizes some other apps it doesn't resize it's just

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everything's so inconsistent particularly when you're using a mouse on the iPad

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um even even with these accessories it's there's such inconsistency with the

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mouse on an iPad uh that it's just really like which I remember remember as

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being like one of the main things that was annoying when they added these like

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when they added mouse support and external monitors instead support for

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external displays because it's like

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they put the headline like oh you can use the mouse on an iPad now oh you can

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use external monitors and then you go to use it and you're like this is

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possibly the dumbest way you could implement this it works until it doesn't

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like even if you want to use this as like an actual just desktop device you

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can't use it it kind of tricks you for a second because you have the keyboard and

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you have the track so this is the second issue with the iPad okay so what I think

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people fundamentally confuse is they look at the way the Mac works and they

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think this is a really flexible operating system and it's really you know this is the way I want my operating

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system to to be and then they assume that by putting that interface on an

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iPad they're gonna get that but the problem with the iPad is is is a part of

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a much greater story which is Apple's kind of the way Apple closed down iOS

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both on iPhone and iPad which is the

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whole epic versus Apple trial uh all it is Anti-Trust scrutiny

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the iPad App Store distribution model I

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think is cons killing the iPad it's constraining the iPad thank you out of

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any any out of even discovering how to best use this form factor in this touch

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interface exactly and so if you're saying you want to put macOS on an iPad

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because really it's the district app distribution model then we need to deal

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with app distribution not the interface wait

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what I'm just enjoying the framing right now that's not what I'm saying I don't

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want to put macOS on the iPad and I don't want to put iPod OS on the Mac I'm

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just lamenting the fact that Apple felt the need to like develop both platforms

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and kind of like cross pollinate some features from one onto the onto the

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other like macOS has gotten some stuff

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from iOS and iPad OS has done some stuff settings but the system settings in

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Ventura is terrible right oh right yeah because the

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the system settings in Ventura now looks like looks like the iPad settings it's

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got this the sidebar thing going on right the stupidest thing I can't

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believe that this is how I iOS works it's so crazy to me this is someone

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who's got the worst part but it's it's not the worst part yeah whatever I just

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mean um so they've done this thing where they've crossed pollinate features onto

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both platforms but they have refused to

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like take those to its natural conclusion like okay we're adding all

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these like features from our touch operating system on the macOS but we're

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not going to add touch and we're not even going to think about it and we're adding all these desktop features from

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the desktop onto iOS to make this to the cross

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at every time they've done that they should have those those ideas of

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cross-pollination and and seeing that kind of happen a little bit I don't like

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I know I want them divided the issue is

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that the App Store is the only app distribution model on the iPad and it's

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it means developers are just not going to invest their time into making the

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iPad better they have no reason to adopt the stage manager stuff because most

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people have one of these iPads okay so you you've identified you want to get

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rid of the App Store do you think that if Apple gets rid of the App Store on

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iPad OS that they can retain the amount the the kind

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of control of the UI and the form factor

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and all this stuff that they that they want to do yeah or do they go hand in

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hand no no no no they don't go anywhere

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well I mean my argument is if they didn't control the app

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Distribution on the iPad so strenuously

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yeah um the limitations of the iPad wouldn't I

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don't think would feel as as but why well because developers would

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be making more money invest in in in new app ideas uh because

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right now like all the apps I have on my iPad are like free apps that I have to

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like you know they're either free apps that are basically just other Windows of

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websites or they're apps that are part of an app subscription model like

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Microsoft Office right you know Adobe so

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like this software as a service I is the result of this this difficulty in terms

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of figuring out how to monetize apps on the on on a device like this and so that

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that's the problem see to me as soon as you get rid of the App Store

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and people can like side load apps and download them from the internet like

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they do on anything no no no install

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sorry I just I was saying that to differentiate from a stick of the word

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side left sure I just mean if they were allowed to install apps from any Source

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they want uh I think that that would necessarily

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break the sort of like touch first Focus

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that you like with the iPad no because because then developers would come in

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here and they would fix all these problems that I'm complaining about no no no no the point is the usefulness of

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the iPad is is not compromised by the

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fact it's a touch first device the usefulness of the iPad is compromised by

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the app distribution model that Apple's controlling I mean I agree with you

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there yeah I just think that and I think that we'd have a better idea of what a

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tablet is without that without I guess I'm just I

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guess I'm just envisioning this future where we get rid of the App Store and I

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think that and then that's the same iPad OS becomes a desktop because you know

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like yeah no what does it happen well I

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didn't want that to happen I do here's my dream here's my dream here's where

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this all comes from okay my dream and it's like I don't know how actually

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practical it it it is but since I kind

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of got into Tech I feel like my dream has been to have this this this thing

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that Apple the setup that Apple uh I think it's Apple we'll confirm that they

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set up which is that you have a relatively simple device you can take it

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to a desktop situation where you connect it to a keyboard and a mouse and

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external monitors and peripherals and

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you have all this stuff and then you can disconnect it from all that stuff and

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take it away and use it as a as a tablet and maybe you even fold it up and use it

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as a phone you know like I think that obviously all of these like they're

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they're all these phone as computers experiments over the years the the motor

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Motorola axon I think they made I think

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it was Motorola it might have been a different company but they made something called the axon you could do

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this there was I think there was a no key Windows Windows had Continuum which

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was their whole like Windows feature where you could plug in a Windows phone

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and use it as a as a computer and I was like this is super super cool for people

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who are buying Chromebooks for people who are buying netbooks back in the day

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like you don't need a ton of uh uh power

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in your system and phones are super powerful now they can totally power this

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stuff and iPads even more so with like M1 and M2 later wait is there an M2 iPad

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there is yeah just kidding yeah yeah so it's like that's what I think we should

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be heading towards I think that like a situation where you can you can buy the

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the iPad for relatively cheap what's this one is 450. if this one supported

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stage manager and external monitor support that was actually decent and not

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like like the the crap ones that you're saying that it is on the on the on the

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upper tier ones if you could buy an iPad for 450 and you're like you know what

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there's a lot of power in here and I want to use it as my computer you you

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spend okay the the keyboard full it was 250 that's insane but say you want to

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use it as a computer you buy the keyboard folio oh say you want to you a

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mouse you connect your mouse I say you need a dongle to connect to to monitors

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and you just like add on things and it's modular and then you can build the setup

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that you want instead of having Apple dictate to you that no if you buy this

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iPad you cannot do these things that you

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theoretically totally should be able to do but we're just not letting you do it

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because you whoa that's talk like

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this so this

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future that you're you're thinking of where you have a single puck

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yeah that can now change its screen size into many different screens I think it's

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really a really neat idea thank you um I came up with it myself

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quite think of phones powerful enough to really do that

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really no to do like just general basic

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browsing like like you do some you do I do it on my phone right now

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not until once you get to desktop level I don't okay uh but uh there's gonna be

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people eagerly commenting with that uh I disagree but you know yeah but what I'm

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trying to say is like there's gonna be I guess compromises within that stack as

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we've seen already when every every time somebody's tried to do it yeah

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um and so that is a great feature to to strive towards and I I think that within

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that feature you can still work out the ideas of what each screen size is Gonna

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Act Like and stay focused within that and I don't

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think that saying well they need to put a desktop operating

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system on the iPad is

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um really going to get you there when really we should be figuring out what is

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this screen size with a touch screen and this this form factor how does this work

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when I'm in this form factor and just refining that and then if we do get to

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this one device dissolved day which I

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mean I it's gonna happen but it would be great I feel like that's just like the

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it has to happen at some point but maybe but maybe if we if we maybe don't get

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there but I don't think I don't think shoehorning desktop stuff on an iPad's

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gonna get us there but I do think you call it shoe Horning continue sorry I

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think I do think like we we have can now

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computers at different screen sizes all the time and they have just different

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ways you interact with them because of literally the way you hold them

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physically yeah and the physicality of it dictates how you use it and so being

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focused with that physicality about like okay well when I'm on my phone I can I

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need to be able to use it one-handed because it's a small you know the iPad is best used sitting

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on a couch yeah you know a desktop computer is best used sitting at a desk

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well you know the way you sit and the way you're

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limbs are positioned yeah dictate then how that computer is going to be best

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serve you so we should be humans should

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should submit to the limits imposed by our own physiology yeah that's BS I want

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a bionic arms let's go let's just get

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some Deus Ex in here just kidding we are out of time and I really really

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appreciate your perspective thank you so much for coming on and

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thank you for watching uh subscribe to TechLinked I never say this why not but

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we want people to do we want to do more of these also subscribe to Mac Address

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yes if you I called you out right in the beginning so you did okay leave a

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comment below if you think we're both wrong and we should be using Linux

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instead uh see you later