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whoa talk linked didn't see that one coming

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no especially with you here again that's the biggest surprise but the topic for

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this video is john deere tractors and

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them actually getting a a jailbreak thanks to a hacker uh that was shown off

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at defcon let me show you boom nope boom this is

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what i've always wanted is farmers playing

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video games out on the field well but that's why

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this is kind of uh very interesting because

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we've seen that this has been sort of like a meme like doom

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someone installs doom on a pregnancy test someone installs doom on a fridge

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on like a tiny little lego brick or whatever and so i think that there was

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there was a tendency for some outlets this was interesting because we covered

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in in tech link the other day some outlets reported on this and they were

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just like whoa doom another wacky

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guy installed doom on a funny thing then there were other outlets like uh ars

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technica reposting a wired article

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um and others that were able to see this

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for what it is which is a significant moment in the right to repair

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issue and the reason why i brought you on jonathan why because you're an apple

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guy yeah and yeah uh apple loves locking down

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hardware in the same way that john deere has

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yeah but there's an argument to be made

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for john deere but you would even say that i'm gonna

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make that argument well i don't know probably not

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but see this is why i asked you before we started recording i was like how do

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you feel about iphones and jailbreaking yeah and you were like i joke what did

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you i i tried i did attempt to jailbreak an iphone once in my life yes this was

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to get iOS 6 on my iphone 5. um and uh it was

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it was just way more work than it was worth like what i mean i mean you could talk

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about the way it's locked down like it'd be really nice to be able to install an

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older version of an os on on an iphone because you can do that on a mac if the

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mac did support that version you can do that on basically every other type of

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hardware so um but you can't do an iphone because they

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they they they sign it with their servers and so if you try to install an

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old version it just won't it won't it won't work so like i i was like just

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trying to get it to work and it still was like it was like a temporary fix in that if i

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rebooted the iphone it would just go back to oh just like some of those are things so

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like they make it hard they make it really hard and for someone like me uh

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not with it right because it's worth it for other people

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you know i see i appreciate the work other people have done to do it because

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it's um i think it shows vulnerabilities that can get fixed um it allows for a little

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bit of invention i think especially in the early days of the

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iphone you saw a lot of um ideas and features that people wrote for

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jailbroken iphones actually trickle into iOS

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um and so um i'm not against it in the in like a

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really military way you're not against it from the perspective of like people

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should have a right to do this of course yeah you're not like oh you're i should

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i should be out there fighting right to repair legislation oh like no no but i'm

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not a lobbyist but i think what i did i thought it was be it would be people to

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do that get paid to that's true that's true i mean like

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handsome and it's been interesting to see the right to repair movement because

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i don't i can't think of anyone who like

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any real people other than these like corporate lobbyists who would actually

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oppose it yeah like no no no no we trust us we don't know what we're doing

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but like you know it's funny because you see you see the like the things that these

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lobbyists say and they're like it's less about oh people can't be trusted to

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to to repair their things it's more about like if you if you enact these these

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these legislations that will give uh consumers more rights to repair their

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own stuff without having to deal with like authorized services or whatever

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that will inhibit the ability of companies like apple or john deere

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whatever to you know have tight security and like

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protect against hackers and protect and and

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you know quickly execute uh repair measures that

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they need to do or like whatever so it's like that you know that's fair yeah

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there's a perspective there yeah but it's

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you know when you actually talk to people on the ground you see that it's basically only the perspective

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perspective of these lobbyists well i mean as i was thinking about

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uh where this topic could go um in the half hour i had to prepare um

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you had more because it took me almost half hour to set up i was thinking about

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my experience recently with the uh apple self-serve repair program which we did a

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video on Mac Address uh go check it out it's very good um uh surprise ending um

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you haven't watched it when did that come out a couple weeks ago anyway so

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i was on vacation a couple weeks ago and you knew that but you never subscribed

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to Mac Address clearly so i am subscribed suffice to say on TechLinked one of the

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one of the most annoying there's a lot of annoying things about it like it's

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great you can buy the tools to fix the iphone or you can rent the tools and

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like they're really cool tools and they do the job and they help you open up

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your iphone safely and easily and properly but

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uh they have a system configuration

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system where if you replace the screen or you replace the battery or a couple

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of other parts you have to go through this rigmarole to tell the phone that

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this is an official screen right and it's so annoying i took like multiple

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chat sessions and i mean i think we may have broken the volume button on the

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phone so i couldn't actually go into diagnostics mode blah blah blah blah

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um but we got it to work but i was just thinking about like why does it have to

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be that way why can't it just be as simple as just transparency uh of the

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display manufacturer that's found in the about page like if you were to get a screen on your old desktop computer

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you'd know that you bought a viewsonic and it was right right and

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and it's just like literally in front of you right right so why can't that be done on on a phone like what's well you

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know exactly that's the question right and i feel like uh ifixit has done a great job

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of working with i think they've worked with google and

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samsung microsoft maybe some other people as well did they i think there

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was some sort of partnership with apple as well well it could be that like i

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fixed a consulted apple apple's like what do you think we should do and i physically said do all these things in

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apple's like i think it was more that where you know apple kind of sees the

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the winds blowing here where okay this right to repair thing is important uh

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you know the u.s president biden did an executive order last year in 2021 yeah

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we talked about this a little bit before the show that wasn't like legislation

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that's just him saying hey regulatory people

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let's get some right to prepare you in this case

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right to repair specifically was for agriculture in that executive order and

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i'm just at the fact sheet here it says encourages

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the ftc to limit powerful equipment manufacturers from restricting people's ability to use independent repair shops

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or do diy repairs such as when tractor companies block farmers from repairing

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their own tractors i think it said such like that was the example given but i

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think that he also talked about electronics in a different thing maybe

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but anyways regardless what he said applies broadly to you know just it

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should apply bro yeah companies who do these kind of things

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um so back to the uh hacker installing doom

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on a tractor yes um well no i think that's that's all part

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of the conversation but i think the reason why this is so interesting and

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why some people were just kind of like uh some people saw it as not just

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another like wacky installing doom on something weird thing

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is because john deere has been one of the you know as you said they were they were

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basically not named by name or were they named by name in the executive order but they

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were referred to yes large agricultural manufacturers

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right so this has been a controversy for a

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while and the best argument that i saw

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against giving regular people access to these

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systems is that instead of like it just being an iphone or something

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it what you're dealing with is you know large powerful farming equipment yeah

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with motorized spiky bits on them maybe i don't know

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yeah i don't own a farm i i don't i

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don't go on farms i did when i was a child

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now i got another topic journey i was like because the other okay wait wait

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wait let me finish my point so it's large powerful

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farming equipment and i think i found this post back in 2017 because i think

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uh there was sort of oh that's where this is from i thought this was recent yeah there was a burst of activity uh

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talking about this stuff in 2017. there's also a vice article uh talking

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about the uh the black market of john deere tractor hacking where you know

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people took this into their own hands and maybe they weren't able to like

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fully fully jailbreak or fully like get full access to it as uh as it appears

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that this uh sick codes hacker has but

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um yeah back in 2017 they were talking about it and this guy posted on a hacker

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news uh y combinator uh actually i don't entirely know how this

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site works anyways this guy says that he um used to work for john deere and he

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worked on software yeah and that was his argument essentially that like listen

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guys really dangerous these are not riding lawn mowers they are 30 ton

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combines and 20 ton tractors tilling fields with massive horsepower behind

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them they have real potential to end people's lives in the event of failure

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and these tractors do in testing fail in spectacular ways if a team of a hundred

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engineers struggle with their code code blaze codebase internally joe farmer oh

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that's rude isn't going to have a effing clue how to repair their software

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correctly now this was great because i was like

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okay you know what that's a fair point yeah you don't want people killing

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themselves with apple it's like

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what are you scared of what are we scared of people like

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letting a virus onto their iphone and whoopsies what i mean but this is like

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consulting at least this argument kind of makes a makes a play for it's like

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listen you're not playing around with toys these are important tools

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see the thing about computers is what

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they're really complicated machines think about computers is

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binary code so i i mean i i remember car guys so i

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you see this sort of thing you're a car guy i am a car guy that's i don't get it

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but continue um and so you see this sort of thing with computers and cars and

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like in the early days of of computation in cars it was like engine management

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systems they were very closed systems they just figured out how to manage the

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the cars ignition and whatever yeah and that was it

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and then you start seeing the tech industries

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move fast and break things culture sort of creep in

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oh you know what you really want is over-the-air updates oh my gosh and i

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just like i don't know about that and like does in the case of like john deere

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tractors like this like what do you

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why do we need all these firmware updates and why do you need to only go to the dealer for that

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um yeah you know like right it's just so you're you're somebody who's more into

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the like analog type of car situation like you know

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well you don't like when you you don't like that they're basically turning cars

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into like fancy uh cutting-edge tech products no i don't

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like the culture of the of silicon

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valley uh creeping the the bad aspects of the

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culture of silicon valley creeping its way into into the in the way we interact

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you would prefer you'd prefer cars to be a bit more of like a known known uh quad

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i just i don't want known i don't wanna i i don't i don't want touchscreens

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actually that's funny because i just saw an article today talking about uh some

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study i didn't i just scrolled yeah yeah i saw it yes but it was like oh people

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prefer or touch screens are they're basically

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objectively worse than buttons oh yeah unbelievably so right so then the

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question is like okay so the way silicon valley works and the way that

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that structure is and how they interact with software and hardware blah blah

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blah and that going into agriculture equipment like is

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that's probably not a good thing right right but but you can see these

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companies like john deere taking advantage of

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of the structure for instance like the digital millennium copyright act and

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that sort of thing and yeah yeah for doing it i see what you're

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saying and then there's like greater consequences to that because it's not

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just a phone this is like okay there is this argument that tractors are

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dangerous and you know you shouldn't have the ability there anymore absolutely but but because

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they should have they should they should be they don't need to like i don't know what's the updates for

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the updates are so that you you can till

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uh until two percent more crop

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i mean honestly but like if that was an update i don't know if that's a real

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update but uh because we just made it up just here but if that was a thing that

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happened you know mate i can see farmers wanting that because they're like wait

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if if i spend two percent less time doing a thing that's true it takes me

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like hours to do yeah that i definitely like if you have some sort of like you

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know whatever tilling management system like

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um okay i should i have another thought so

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when i was researching the ipad pro and i was scratching my head as to like

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what's the professional use of this device yeah uh i was talking to colin

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actually but uh he kind of showed me this farmer who had who uploaded videos

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about like how he farms and he has an ipad and it was like really cool how

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all this technology is working together where he showed the ipad screen and it

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was basically showing exactly how he was how he was planting the seeds

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on the field and you could like see and it like these things run

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semi-autonomously as well like he just sits there and it's just going well you

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can see like you can see you can see where the seeds go in and what seeds

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didn't go in and so we could go back and check and like there's like a whole mapping system it's like

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it's really cool saying harvest moon totally but like a really complicated

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advanced version of that in the real world uh and like so there's like really cool

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stuff uh there's really cool technology there

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um which is really great and i guess there is a difficulty in terms of how does it

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all interact with each other but um

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i don't know like that's a use case that's that's a positive that is a

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positive use case but this is what's going to be locked down completely exactly exactly so like after all

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this this guy wrote this post he's like oh you don't you don't want to deal with

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it it's too dangerous be so it should be locked down and honestly the first reply

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posted on april 10th 2017 by plinkplunk

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uh-huh uh a hero a hero in the in the industry have you heard of him before no

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you've seen all those posts no but i like his name

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um he's basically like listen that's you know that's fine but

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the fact that things are locked down now means that

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uh that farmers when things happen and they

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need to fix their stuff they can only go to these authorized

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guys and it's not these authorized dealers and it's not like your iphone

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where you can just like book a genius appointment and use your laptop uh in

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the meantime or lose or use your old phone or whatever and then like you know

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just pop into the apple store and give it to the person and they fix it immediately you know this is a situation

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where your your farming equipment has broken down it's sitting in the middle

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of the field it costs apparently hundreds of dollars

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just to get a service call in in some cases and then you're sitting there

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waiting for the guy to show up to to take a look at it because only that

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person has the like software capable to get into the the nitty-gritty with it

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and try and fix the issue and that's just honestly as soon as i read that i

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was like well okay that blows up the danger

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argument then yeah because now the dangers crops going bad yeah and then

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the other side of that is that i've seen lots of people saying listen

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farmers have been dealing with dangerous farm equipment for hundreds thousands

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whatever i don't know of years centuries at the very least yeah it's definitely

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longer than that yeah that humans have been around i'd say but also like you

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can develop and design uh fail-safes

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and you can also you know develop and

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design ways to make sure that simple

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repairs are manageable i feel like printers

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come to mind where a lot of the time

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instead of either repairing their printer or taking it somewhere to repair

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people just buy a new printer when their ink runs out now there are there are ways to get

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around this obviously people have like you know fill your own ink cartridges

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and some companies are better than others but uh yeah it's not just apple but i think

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apple is such an interesting uh example because they are in the news

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a lot we talk about them on our channel well just the biggest company yeah and i

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think that they've they've put forward the argument again and again that we

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know what's safe and good to run on our hardware and

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you don't and so you need to rely on us apple has really high standards for the

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products they want to make and they believe that by controlling the whole

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aspect of it they can do a better job

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and there have been examples where that has worked and there's been examples

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where that hasn't worked um and so for instance they have really

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high standards for the displays that are installed on iphones and like i can tell

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if somebody's had their screen repaired with the less quality oh yeah yeah

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really yeah and like this is good this takes back years like somebody with an iphone 4 i

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remember looking at the screen i'm like oh you got your screen repaired i'm like

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what how do you know so like you can you can eyeball that you can

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eyeball it that's how that's so good that's how good the oem screens are

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right but on the flip side if someone who doesn't

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care about that wants to spin less to fix their screen because their phone's

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four years old and they just want to get another year or two out of it yeah i i

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don't see why that should be prevented you know it's interesting i feel like i

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feel like we're coming into this era in the sort of like modern

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technological internet age where

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uh you know there was there was this golden era of like oh the internet is

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this we we kind of talked about this on uh we did hackers on they're just movies

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uh this week with luke and we talked about how you know when

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the internet was first kind of arriving everyone was like wow it's this like new

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technology it's gonna it's gonna level the playing field it's going to make it

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so that people aren't uh you know discriminated against based on things

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like race ethnicity age whatever skin color blah blah blah and you can choose

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it in the meta version yeah well because because instead of like being yourself

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on the internet you can be anyone and you can choose a handle and be anonymous

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and blah blah and back then you know without our knowledge of today they were

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like yeah this is going to be a lead to a utopia and now and then we

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kind of went through this period of cynicism which we still are in i think

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there's like a lot of noise it's just starting it's it it is

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uh you know because the internet has been instead of being

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this big open play uh field it's been splintered into these like corporatized

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uh you know mini internets that interact with each other and that's yeah and the

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metaverse is the next thing there but is it i'm saying in other ways like with

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right to repair i think that there's like we're going past the phase

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where companies have have had as you said used other

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types of laws and other ways of thinking like the digital millennium copyright

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act dmca and they're like hey wait if this is a

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precedent we can use that to lock down our hardware over here

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and we're coming past that a little bit now where i think the people are seeing

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this and we're seeing legislation come up in america and canada and other

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places that are like

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actually now we kind of understand how this is working and we understand what

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these companies are doing what we meant yeah yeah exactly exactly so now it's like

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maybe we can start to create some sort of like common sense

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legislation where it's like uh we've lost something in the

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digitization of this stuff like there was this scenario where

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farmers could go and like fix their own equipment because it was analog yeah and

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then we tried to digitize everything and put pooters and everything yeah

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and we realized wait a second

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you can't turn everything into a computer and have it locked down in the same way that like people used to lock

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down pc systems yeah yeah yeah now we're coming out the other side

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this is hopeful hopefully well it seems like it seems like we are i mean no it's

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there's been good movement um it's very slow very brittle um

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but very brittle it is yeah it's just like you're just you're like is this

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gonna well the way it works is gonna be lots of arguments

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um and so i'm excited at the prospect but like it's

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unless there's like real legislative change

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if we go through all those court cases and blah blah blah blah blah it's gonna take forever and i guess it's still good

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it's probably gonna take more time to considering like changes in the demographics of those

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elected leaders who make write the laws yeah how their understandings of how

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things work go and and then there are philosophies behind that

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but um yeah we've just lived in and we're just we just that that techno

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optimism from the early days of the internet and

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even even computing was sort of taken advantage of it was to our uh detriment

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those dang corporal corpo rats

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i mean we all signed up for it was like oh wow this is so exciting it's all gonna be really great and then you're

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like wait a minute what's going on yeah yeah and before you know it and then and then

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you can do anything about it your metaverse citizen number

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two three five six you were facebook user whatever like it was it was already

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back then yeah like it was so um

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it's just taking a long time i guess it is people to be like oh maybe this

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doesn't matter i s but i see some but i see some hope uh like i mean this this

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jailbreak for john deere equipment comes after john deere had already said like

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they've been under pressure for a long time and i think they had already said

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uh i think it said somewhere that john deere had

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like pledged to make things easier yeah

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sure where was it it's in here somewhere oh facing mounting pressure john deere

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announced in march that it would make more of its repair software available to

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equipment owners the company also said at the time they will release an

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enhanced customer solution next year so it's like even john deere who is like

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the worst uh example of this stuff has seen this

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pressure and has relented a little bit but you know they're not moving fast

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enough and this is what's so great about hacking this is another thing we talked

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about on the podcast they're just movies subscribe today about hacking as a as a

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thing i always thought of hackers as like bad you know obviously there are

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white hat hackers and black hat and red hat and all these different types of

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hackers but for the most part when people when you say the word hackers

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most people in the world i think would think of like evil you know

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trying to trying to steal money and stuff it is but like again back in the

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90s hacking was this like cool new thing that if you were keeping up with the

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developments and technology and stuff you could do things that other people couldn't do and it just came down to

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what kind of a person you were if were you a bad person

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or were you a good person and like trying to

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uh trying to do this type of stuff

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jailbreaking equipment so that cut con consumers have more power and are able

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to counter these sort of like lockdown measures uh by i have something to show

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you because we're running out of time but i thought you might be interested in

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this technically we have two minutes this is kyleen's from ifixit he said

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sick codes is jailbroken john deere and this is just the beginning turns out the

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entire food system is built on outdated unpatched Linux and Windows ce hardware

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with lte modems yeah remember Windows ce

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i i don't but what do you

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i well i guess like i could guess what it is but you don't even know Windows c

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Windows ce it was at the like the tournament edition it was like it was

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like installed in like palm pilots oh yeah yeah yeah okay i used that my

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brother had one of those hit a Windows pocket yeah with Windows on it i was

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like this is the coolest thing in the world i had a Windows mobile phone which was like a long drive the last Windows

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ce and it was the worst phone in the whole of human history

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so this is very reassuring combined was super cool i played snake on there oh

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nice i did have a palm pilot with palm os that was much better but the tweet is

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is interesting because it as you said

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yeah it indicates that like oh once we realize this kind of stuff yeah

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it's like you know it's like i mean it's like learning your honda infotainment is is like Android 4.

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yeah you're like oh great uh what do i do with this i'm dead

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if anyone gets access to this but honda's engine management and the

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infotainment are split off sure but more importantly okay you you might see that

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and you're like oh no i'm vulnerable but at the same time it's like oh sweet this

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is vulnerable i can hack it and do what i want with it because it's it's harder

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than i can figure it out um last thing in conclusion is that biden

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made this executive order it seems like that has kind of like and and also

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pressure from like grassroots uh organizations like louis rossman

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obviously yeah uh is has done a big push on this and we talked about uh cause

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that he's uh focusing on now more on the WAN Show so he's still focusing on that

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uh canada apparently has a couple right to repair bills but like they seem to be

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really specific like there's one that's technic oh

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sorry this one was talking about tpm's and i thought they was talking about the

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trusted platform modules on Windows on uh

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x86 hardware which is like a Windows 11 requirement yeah

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but this canadian bill that i found bill

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c-272 which uh was passed through

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the second reading i don't know exactly what that means even uh of our own government

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i'm not sure uh but it's not talking about trusted platform modules it's talking about

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technological protection measures so that could be anything oh i'm reading

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one about like the convention of the copyright act for repairing

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okay is that a canada thing yeah yeah well this one is apparently talking

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about more broad things as well firmware restrictions encryption

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so anyways the point is that the tides are changing

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and i guess really slowly apple

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is is not as good as as Android after all

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you later i wouldn't say just kidding thanks for watching

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i'm trying to end the episode jonathan and i'm trying to there is

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we don't have a standardized way to end talk linked so this is here's what you

396
00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:53,279
do you just start editing in like some music

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they're playing my own channel is playing me off yeah

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i'm believing you can do that that's the magic of subscribe subscribe to mac

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address please and thank you and see you later