WEBVTT

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HR needs you to tell the difference between these two chips nothing how

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about now what is a centaur CPU I mean

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it certainly isn't the kind of thing you'd find on new eggs or how'd we get our hands on one I can't tell you that

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but what I can tell you is that it is a prototype x86 CPU that fits into an

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Intel socket on this motherboard that doesn't work with an Intel CPU it's not

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made by Intel or AMD for that matter and

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while it doesn't have much in common physically with a mythical Beast it very

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much is one just like our beastly

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sponsor I fix it if your favorite old console is on the fritz don't go replace

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game console Parts using the link down below

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we're going to get to who Centaur is in a moment but first what is up with this

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motherboard it's got an Intel socket LGA

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2011 V3 to be exact but we were told by our anonymous source that you should not

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put an Intel CPU in it so it's physically the same but electrically

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completely incompatible kind of like when you see a USB port that's labeled

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rs232 they've just reused the housing

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and the pins in order to save time and cost but all the signal in is completely

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different I have never seen that done with a CPU socket though and the

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motherboard it soldered to is a trip there's normal stuff you got what

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appears to be a quad Channel memory configuration just like we saw on the

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Intel CPUs that used this socket standard PC power inputs PCI Express

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expansion slots couple m.2 storage slots those were showing up on Intel around

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this time as well but as we dig deeper

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it is absolutely covered in jumpers and

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dip switches and that is an indication that this is a development platform

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board so with these which I've been instructed not to touch you can actually

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change the characteristics of either the CPU itself or the behavior of the

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motherboard depending on what you're trying to test this was a weird one for

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me too it's actually got one of those gamery segmented audio sub pcbs with a

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CD audio connector okay now hold on a

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second we need to take a closer look at this moving along the bottom we've got a

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USBC Port not a header an actual Port so

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that probably connects either to some kind of Hardware interface or another PC

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for Diagnostic and development purposes and then back to the front I've been

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told that I should take the heat sink off of here guess we'll put you back

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later and have a look at this guy zx200

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what are you interesting USB SATA networking and PCI Express

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switching that's about it it and what that means is that this CPU is a highly

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integrated s so without the platform

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controller Hub that you would find on an Intel motherboard of this generation so

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it's more like a Threadripper in our search for identifying marks we found

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some cool stuff there's a bunch of probe points on this board which are Super

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useful for developers when they're trying to figure out what's going on with power delivery or on the various

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buses and we found this little label

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ch001 DC next to the Centaur Tech

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technology logo and maybe more importantly this sticker the QR code

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doesn't go anywhere but Kodiak assembly is a company that provides PCB assembly

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and other fabrication services and this date has this board manufactured in

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September of 2019 that is not that long

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ago most PCS these days and really for

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almost the last 25 years use CPUs from

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AMD and Intel a duopoly that they maintain by refusing to license the x86

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instruction set to any other part but there is another sentaur technology

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was founded in 1995 as a subsidiary of

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IDT by former IBM fellow Glenn Henry to

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do what IBM didn't do and the concept

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was simple a small team building a low complexity lowcost energy efficient

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desktop CPU for the then new sub $1,000

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PC market this became the win chip and

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it was modestly successful mostly in Market markets outside of the US

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offering adequate performance at half of the size of a contemporary Pentium class

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CPU unfortunately Intel took notice and

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did what Intel did best in the 9s and absolutely crushed them centaur was

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ultimately acquired then alongside cyrix by via Technologies in

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1999 their next CPU the cyx 3 found

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little Commercial Success on the desktop but in embedded systems it was so

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popular that many ITX was developed specifically to show off its successor

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the C3 Now Intel who had already sued

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via over chipset patents in the 90s sued via again in 2001 for x86 patent

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infringement and Via counter sued for the infringement of centaur's patents

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ultimately they both settled in 2003 with a 10-year cross- licensing

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agreement that stipulated that via / Centaur could continue creating x86

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designs as long as they were not in any way compatible with Intel chipsets a fun

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bit of trivia here is via used to make motherboard chipsets and the settlement

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gave them until 2017 to stop doing that for Intel chips so that explains how

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Centaur got away with building an x86 CPU but it doesn't explain why they

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built it and to find that out we've got to take a closer look at what it is

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starting with what it's not it's not a CPU it's an S so code named Centaur

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halls or cha that's why our motherboard has no chipset on it it's all on the

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chip itself it's got up to eight cores clocked it up to 2.5 GHz though 2.0 is

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stock on our chip and it supports AVX

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512 kind of like AMD has done on their

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most recent Zen 4 architecture in such a way that it doesn't require the chip to

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be downclocked like intels did at the time the biggest piece though is an

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onboard AI accelerator code named encor

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it added essentially no cost but it could access the CPU's level three cache

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and system memory extremely quickly it

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was meant to be the killer app for this platform with an extremely high-speed

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bidirectional 160 gab pers second connection to the CPU itself that's more

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bandwidth than a PCIe Gen 6 by6 slot

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unfortunately while their idea for a lowcost AI accelerated platform was

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pretty well timed the actual execution

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well not so much we'll get into that a little bit later first did I tell you

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this thing works let's fire it

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up even the fact they got as far as silicon power on means they were deep

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into development of this platform like real work was done and that is

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mindblowing the BIOS build date is

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2021 guys that is 2 and 1/2 years ago

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they were still developing for this thing and just 2 months before Intel

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purchased centaur's engineering staff from via man I feel like a kid who just

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got dropped off at the playground what do I go on first the monkey bars or the

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marryg go round now because this is a debug board there's a lot of items that

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go nowhere and do nothing but there's some really cool stuff in here oh did it

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just turn off it sure did it did um

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uh what I mean what all is there for us to play with here CPU configuration

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there's our 2 GHz clock speed oh nonfused CPU ah fuses apparently there's

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a whole bunch of fuses that we can blow in here and if you're not familiar fuses

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can lock functionality like uh instruction sets or even uh CPU cache

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and that's one of the ways that we get a lower-end chip from a higher end chip so

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theoretically they could put a top speec chip in a board like this one blow up

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the parts they don't need and end up with any chip from the lineup the

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concluder now hold on a sec if I'm understanding this correctly it changes

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the CPU ID to be whatever it is that I

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tell it to be Intel probably wouldn't like this for AVX

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512 that would have been really useful for this kind of application I wonder if

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this thing's a PlayStation 3 emulation monster demo board is just onboard land

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enable disable I guess they hadn't put it in the proper category yet this is

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surprisingly robust and finished looking PCI Gen 2 only though this was toward

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the very end of PCIe gen 2's life cycle

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this is really important setting Dam timings because oh my God those default

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timings I can see why you had to put it all in manually for now we're going to

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leave all of this alone including the ever so tempting the concluder button

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and let Windows see the real deal while we wait for it to boot by the way you

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we're in Windows the first thing you'll probably notice is we're running Windows

00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:31.240
10 that's cuz there's no firmware TPM and no module that we were able able to

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easily find for the header that's on the board so Windows 10 then uh we could try

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to bypass the lock for Windows 11 but I've been told realistically the

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system's slow enough on 10 steam 100%

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the CPU easily when downloading at I

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mean let's do a quick speed test there it is 2 GHz at super super slow timings

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we'll get these tweaked we'll get these tweaked before we do any oh my

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God sorry I was about to say performance testing but I guess I mean lack of

00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:09.200
performance testing 350

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megabit that is not fast this is cool

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though it knows that it's Centaur technology even has the right code name

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it is often amazing to me how much

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information something like a CPU Z is able to pull off of Hardware that in the

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wild doesn't exist in the mainboard tab

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we see the chipset is made by Jin that's

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name that's going to come up later also PCI Express 3.0 now wait a second it

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said PCIe Gen 2 in the BIOS but the bus spec say gen 3 here honestly I would

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trust CPU Z over that janky BIOS and gen

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3 makes way more sense for that time period because we were on the cusp of

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Gen 4 by that point enough fooling around for now though Emily's going to

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get this thing dialed in and we're going to do some performance testing and

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sometime later we're going to have an exclusive over at lm. g/f flat plane of

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Emily going through everything that was changed we've got there we go that's

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more like it and I can drag a window around now yes without it lagging behind

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me I guess the first thing I want to do is run C bench R20 look at this I'm on

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the internet on a centaur loads the way you'd expect I mean it's x86

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right there's some differences but but but mostly that is not

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fast 3 hours later almost there

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1660 to put that in context the ryzen 7

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1700x which was not even the top performing ship at the time came out 7

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years ago and is more than double that score I'm afraid to see what's going to

00:12:43.800 --> 00:12:48.920
happen in gaming I'm afraid to see what a single core run would look like how

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many points was that no no points I bet we can gain

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though we'll just play older games lighter games play Dave the diver

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oh my goodness and this isn't even because it has a mechanical hard drive

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in it this is just how fast it

00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:15.839
is I mean In fairness it does work our

00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:20.560
next game is Doug hug which was created as a prank I guess to generate fake

00:13:18.199 --> 00:13:25.519
outrage around the time of the launch of Duke Nukem Forever and uh they said they

00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:30.279
would do it 13 years ago and actually followed through here it is in 2024 it's

00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:35.600
time to generate some some positivity cuz games are just too negative

00:13:32.959 --> 00:13:38.959
this there are sharks in the sky Let's help this granny across the street shall

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we here we go mimo let's go let's go let's go let's go let's go come on pick up the pace

00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:51.639
lady yeah okay she'll make it I can't

00:13:49.160 --> 00:13:58.040
stop frown I think it's some kind of turn that frown upside down that's not

00:13:55.279 --> 00:14:03.240
the same voice actor as Duke Nukem is it it is that is John St John oh now is the

00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:11.279
perfect opportunity to find out if that USBC Port is in fact a functioning USBC

00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:12.800
Port can I plug a controller into it yes

00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:19.199
now that doesn't mean that it isn't for Diagnostics it very likely is but it

00:14:15.880 --> 00:14:21.120
also just happens to be a USBC Port it's

00:14:19.199 --> 00:14:25.480
a super cool game it's a Rog light hockey game you go on a campaign to

00:14:22.920 --> 00:14:29.480
restore hockey to its former glory uh there's all kinds of cool upgrades like

00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:33.440
you can throw your stick at opponent you can fart and push them away so they

00:14:31.199 --> 00:14:37.079
can't body check you pretty fun and with the latest beta supports five player

00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:40.880
local multiplayer so you can have every player on your team be human controlled

00:14:39.199 --> 00:14:46.959
just don't lose a game or your campaign's over hey look at this in the

00:14:43.959 --> 00:14:50.199
lightest possible games we can get 150

00:14:46.959 --> 00:14:53.519
frames per second no problem

00:14:50.199 --> 00:14:56.000
buddy here we go here we go here we go

00:14:53.519 --> 00:15:00.079
let's go come on you know what it feels pretty laggy

00:14:58.680 --> 00:15:05.399
though I'm not not going to lie it does not feel like 150 frames per second the

00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:09.120
point is other than being slow there's nothing that really sets this thing

00:15:06.800 --> 00:15:17.800
apart from any other computer that I've used it works try C bench 2024 no

00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:21.880
avx2 I know where we're going with this I'm going to pretend to be a different

00:15:19.199 --> 00:15:27.199
CPU now right that is where the concluder comes in as far as we can tell

00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:32.480
some applications instead of checking the instruction set support are just

00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:34.079
checking a list of I don't know CPU

00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.880
models that are known to support the instruction set and if you don't happen

00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:43.920
to have it they're just spitting out an error and cinebench 24 would be one of

00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:46.319
them cuz according to CPU Z the CPU does

00:15:43.920 --> 00:15:52.759
in fact support avx2 but I guess we're about to find out if we artificially

00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:55.800
change the reporting ID to Skylake X

00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:58.440
will it run I mean probably won't run

00:15:55.800 --> 00:16:05.720
but it might walk oh that's hilarious oh Intel would would not be happy about

00:16:00.319 --> 00:16:09.279
this it even shows an Intel logo it even

00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:12.959
misreports does it even misreport the

00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:15.959
socket that's super weird oh my God this

00:16:12.959 --> 00:16:19.639
cor speed okay it has no idea what's

00:16:15.959 --> 00:16:21.519
going on why does it say PCI E Gen 4 now

00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:29.519
there's no way that's right hold on a second what is our GPU reporting oh this

00:16:24.319 --> 00:16:32.199
is fascinating no it's gen 3 wait but it

00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:41.199
report it reports a bus interface of Gen 4 is it Gen 4 not my

00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:44.000
knowledge yes no no what and of course C

00:16:41.199 --> 00:16:48.279
bench 2024 totally launches in an effort to get the end core neural processor

00:16:45.880 --> 00:16:52.079
working we fired up Linux as well but we had even more problems in Linux than we

00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:57.720
did in Windows it takes forever to boot the desktop is even laggier and our PCIe

00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:02.399
devices seem to run at incorrect speeds also no public driver seems to exist for

00:17:00.199 --> 00:17:07.360
the encor so we weren't able to test it and the fonics test Suite takes forever

00:17:04.600 --> 00:17:12.079
just to download let alone to run with how customizable Linux is I think this

00:17:09.520 --> 00:17:17.160
is one of if not the first time that we've had some weird esoteric piece of

00:17:14.600 --> 00:17:22.480
Hardware that works less completely or less reliably on Linux than it does on

00:17:18.959 --> 00:17:24.799
Windows but hey even Champions have bad

00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:29.480
days all of which is interesting but doesn't answer our big questions how did

00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:33.360
this come to be and why Why didn't it get over the Finish Line in order to

00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:37.080
answer that we've got to do a little bit of a history lesson the final

00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:42.360
commercially released design from centaur was the Via Nano X2 code name

00:17:39.919 --> 00:17:46.880
Isaiah that came out back in 2011 and was a dual core chip meant for Pico ITX

00:17:44.679 --> 00:17:52.400
systems and meant to compete with Intel atom now in the 2010s pretty much

00:17:50.120 --> 00:17:57.440
everyone Intel included saw the writing on the wall for embedded x86 not to

00:17:55.320 --> 00:18:03.080
mention that via's patent cross license deal with Intel with which included the

00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:06.440
x86 license was only guaranteed until

00:18:03.080 --> 00:18:08.320
2013 so that same year then via started

00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:12.520
the xiaan joint venture with the Shanghai municipal government where s

00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:18.159
so's would be developed for the Chinese market where uh pesky things like IP

00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:22.320
licensing deals don't matter quite as much but in spite of their obvious

00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:27.200
attempts to safeguard their future by investing in China they weren't out of

00:18:24.159 --> 00:18:30.799
the global market just yet in 2014

00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:34.240
rumors circulated of a Poss Centaur x86

00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:37.200
SL ARM hybrid project but nothing came

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:41.600
of it and then in 2019 they announced the cha the S so that we're looking at

00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:47.320
today the idea was that it would be positioned against Intel's Zeon CPUs at

00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:51.960
an estimated price of just $500 to $1,000 which sounds like a pretty

00:18:50.080 --> 00:18:57.720
compelling story but the headwinds were many and they were Mighty in 2019 alone

00:18:55.440 --> 00:19:02.919
Intel's lowcost Cascade Lake launched Intel's high-end ice Lake SB was due to

00:19:00.159 --> 00:19:07.559
launch and AMD's epic RAM launched with Incredible core counts that absolutely

00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:13.320
dwarfed what Centaur Halls was expected to deliver in the second half of 2020

00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:17.000
not only that but gpus and AI accelerator cards had already taken over

00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:22.480
the task of machine learning from the CPU and the performance was not even

00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:29.640
close don't believe me ask Jensen hang's accountant NVIDIA's Tesla T4 which was a

00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:33.080
downclocked RTX 2070 super was 2 $2,000

00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:36.679
in 2019 which is a lot more than one of

00:19:33.080 --> 00:19:38.520
these but absolutely Stomps all over the

00:19:36.679 --> 00:19:44.039
end course performance even with an older four core Skylake CPU that cost

00:19:42.840 --> 00:19:50.200
only $213 so generously if we assume that

00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.880
Centaur Halls launched at $500 that Zeon

00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:57.679
plus T4 combo is 4 and half times the price for four to five times the

00:19:55.280 --> 00:20:02.159
performance which actually sounds pretty reasonable until you consider that going

00:20:00.520 --> 00:20:06.000
the other route you'd get a platform from a company that's launched more than

00:20:03.760 --> 00:20:09.960
one commercial chip in the past 8 years you could use Cuda so you have broader

00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:17.280
compatibility and you can throw consumer gpus in these things for a lower price

00:20:12.159 --> 00:20:20.200
too so yeah they had a good idea for

00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:24.880
2017 but by 2019 the industry was just moving too fast for it to make any sense

00:20:22.760 --> 00:20:28.880
and by 2021 much of centaur's engineering was sold over to Intel

00:20:26.760 --> 00:20:31.919
leaving via with mainly just Cent intellectual property which kind of

00:20:30.280 --> 00:20:36.760
makes you wonder if Intel had a hand in Centaur Halls cancellation Centaur Halls

00:20:34.280 --> 00:20:41.840
was as far as we know the final s so designed in-house by Centaur and much of

00:20:39.320 --> 00:20:45.720
its DNA is actually shared with the Xian chips like the one that we looked at

00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:51.440
some time ago which makes it kind of a missing link between where xia Shin is

00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:54.400
today and the Isaiah based via Nano and

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unfortunately that's all it is a missing link to our sponsor I fix it that loud

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00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:45.760
video why not check out the one where we looked at one of those xiaosen CPUs at

00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:54.480
the time we were looking at it going how did these guys get an x86 license and

00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:54.480
well they kind of didn't I guess