{"video_id":"C6aCCp-Umcw","title":"USB4 is a Glorious Mess","channel":"Linus Tech Tips","show":"Linus Tech Tips","published_at":"2023-05-05T14:53:29Z","duration_s":1026,"segments":[{"start_s":0.199,"end_s":5.4,"text":"usb4 is an absolute Game Changer we're","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":3.419,"end_s":12.0,"text":"talking 40 gigabit per second data rates support for 8K displays and external","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":8.22,"end_s":15.24,"text":"gpus a single cable docking at up to 240","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":12.0,"end_s":17.52,"text":"watt charging rates and all over the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":15.24,"end_s":25.439,"text":"same USB type-c connectors and cables that you have come to know into yes what","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":21.5,"end_s":27.599,"text":"actually usb4 is more like a collection","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":25.439,"end_s":33.0,"text":"of optional standards okay it sounds like what you're talking about is USB 4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":30.0,"end_s":35.28,"text":"gen 3x2 with some of those optional","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":33.0,"end_s":39.12,"text":"features implemented so your sponsor origin pz would probably want you to","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":37.32,"end_s":43.86,"text":"clarify that so pedantic Riley is very annoying but he's","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":42.0,"end_s":47.28,"text":"also right I mean it shouldn't surprise me coming from the same industry","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":45.48,"end_s":52.379,"text":"Consortium that brought us naming like USB 3.2 gen 2x2 but five years after","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":51.059,"end_s":58.62,"text":"Intel's announcement that they would open source Thunderbolt USB 4 is finally","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":55.86,"end_s":64.5,"text":"out in force and has turned out to be one of the most confusing standards ever","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":61.62,"end_s":67.92,"text":"to make it onto a consumer PC the good news though is that by the time we're","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":66.18,"end_s":73.26,"text":"finished here you will understand both its pros and cons and how it operates or","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":71.7,"end_s":78.14,"text":"doesn't with other standards like Thunderbolt including real world","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":75.36,"end_s":78.14,"text":"examples","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":84.799,"end_s":91.5,"text":"the simple explanation really is that","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":87.9,"end_s":93.42,"text":"usb4 is an open version of Thunderbolt 3","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":91.5,"end_s":99.54,"text":"based on the specifications the Intel released back in 2017. there is a lot to","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":97.14,"end_s":103.079,"text":"love about this move for one thing it frees vendors from the shackles of","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":101.4,"end_s":109.02,"text":"Intel's notoriously onerous certification process and for another it","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":105.84,"end_s":111.479,"text":"allows non-Intel CPU manufacturers like","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":109.02,"end_s":115.68,"text":"apple or especially AMD who didn't co-develop the standard to support","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":113.34,"end_s":120.659,"text":"features that used to be Thunderbolt exclusive like 40 gigabit data rates","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":118.5,"end_s":127.14,"text":"daisy chaining together multiple devices and PCIe tunneling which is super cool","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":124.439,"end_s":132.36,"text":"and allows you to turn your USBC Port into a PCI Express connection for","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":129.479,"end_s":138.66,"text":"devices like external gpus and other add-on cards the problem is that when","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":136.08,"end_s":144.239,"text":"you free the notoriously Cheapskate computer industry from compliance","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":140.34,"end_s":147.84,"text":"programs you invite shortcuts and usb4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":144.239,"end_s":150.12,"text":"invites a lot of shortcuts in no","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":147.84,"end_s":154.92,"text":"particular order here are the optional components of the spec that can be left","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":152.16,"end_s":160.56,"text":"off of your device while still allowing the vendor to slap usb4 on the spec","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":157.44,"end_s":163.68,"text":"sheet 40 gigabit transfer rates 20","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":160.56,"end_s":167.34,"text":"gigabit USB 3.2 Thunderbolt alternate","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":163.68,"end_s":170.819,"text":"mode USBC alternate mode and yes PCIe","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":167.34,"end_s":172.739,"text":"tunneling yeah in a world where almost","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":170.819,"end_s":177.9,"text":"nothing you can connect to a laptop needs the speed of even a last gen USB","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":175.379,"end_s":183.48,"text":"320 gig Port isn't the whole point of usb4 PCIe tunneling and interoperability","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":181.26,"end_s":188.819,"text":"with Thunderbolt 3 devices well Microsoft sure thought so which is","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":185.819,"end_s":191.76,"text":"why they actually require external usb4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":188.819,"end_s":196.5,"text":"ports on Windows 11 devices to support PCIe tunneling which theoretically","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":194.4,"end_s":201.659,"text":"ensures backwards compatibility with Thunderbolt 3 devices but there is no","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":199.08,"end_s":206.459,"text":"such guarantee if you were to buy a bare motherboard or a non-Windows device and","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":204.84,"end_s":211.14,"text":"from my conversations with a device maker whose previous Thunderbolt 3","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":208.739,"end_s":216.84,"text":"notebook actually never ended up getting certified by Intel there is a lot more","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":213.959,"end_s":221.58,"text":"to this interoperability than just checking a box for PCIe tunneling making","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":219.42,"end_s":226.739,"text":"matters even more confusing Microsoft does not appear to have mandates in","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":223.799,"end_s":232.379,"text":"place for any of the other features the good news is that when it works it works","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":229.5,"end_s":237.599,"text":"really well here is a small bushel of Thunderbolt 3 Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":235.08,"end_s":242.76,"text":"devices that we've tried on the Voyager a1600 gaming and content creation laptop","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":240.54,"end_s":246.78,"text":"that Corsair provided for this video and I'm going to show you guys what the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":244.2,"end_s":251.519,"text":"experience is like on a usb4 laptop after the short message from our sponsor","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":249.0,"end_s":255.78,"text":"Corsair packs the Voyager a1600 with high performance gear like their","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":252.959,"end_s":260.22,"text":"Vengeance ddr5 memory and yet managed to keep it amazingly slim the integrated","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":258.54,"end_s":264.36,"text":"Elgato steam deck allows you to map streaming commands and keyboard","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":261.78,"end_s":269.04,"text":"shortcuts to 10 easy access customizable shortcut buttons using simple drag and","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":266.46,"end_s":273.36,"text":"drop customization and Corsair's IQ software lets you fully customize the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":271.139,"end_s":276.54,"text":"system's look monitor performance and manage your Corsair devices so you can","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":275.04,"end_s":279.84,"text":"update and fine-tune the settings to your needs it comes with a one-year","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":278.28,"end_s":284.699,"text":"comprehensive warranty for peace of mind making it the Premier Choice for laptop","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":281.82,"end_s":288.54,"text":"PC gaming or content Creation in a super compact package visit the link down","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":286.56,"end_s":292.259,"text":"below to learn more for our first trick we'll be trying to connect a couple of","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":289.8,"end_s":296.639,"text":"Thunderbolt 3 devices to our USB 4 laptop and the reason this matters is","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":294.78,"end_s":300.96,"text":"because these older devices would have been designed at a time that usb4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":299.22,"end_s":307.38,"text":"compatibility wouldn't have been a consideration so if they work it means","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":304.139,"end_s":310.919,"text":"that usb4 is transparently compatible","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":307.38,"end_s":313.02,"text":"with Thunderbolt 3 at least okay this","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":310.919,"end_s":318.66,"text":"one works for these particular devices now that first one I plugged in using a","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":315.54,"end_s":320.699,"text":"usb4 cable and the second one we're","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":318.66,"end_s":325.08,"text":"going to try an older Thunderbolt 3 cable","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":321.66,"end_s":326.94,"text":"we got it there it is Cal digit 10 gig","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":325.08,"end_s":334.199,"text":"network adapter this backwards compatibility means that any Thunderbolt","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":329.699,"end_s":336.66,"text":"3 device and USB 4 system should work","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":334.199,"end_s":341.58,"text":"with each other now I would expect to find some edge cases particularly with","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":339.06,"end_s":346.02,"text":"very old devices due to Intel specific handshakes that used to be required but","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":344.039,"end_s":350.52,"text":"we didn't run into any of them while we were working on this video now let's try","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":348.3,"end_s":353.58,"text":"a Thunderbolt 4 device in the interest of giving ourselves our best shot here","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":352.259,"end_s":357.479,"text":"we're going to go ahead and use a Thunderbolt 4 validated cable look at","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":356.46,"end_s":361.56,"text":"that easy and we don't even need that old","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":359.639,"end_s":366.479,"text":"Intel application for managing all of our connected devices I mean I expected","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":364.56,"end_s":371.88,"text":"this to work the main difference between Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 4 is","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":369.36,"end_s":377.759,"text":"actually also in enforcement of compliance so Thunderbolt 4 requires in","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":375.419,"end_s":383.28,"text":"order to get the Intel badge support for two 4K displays or a single 8K display","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":380.479,"end_s":387.0,"text":"computers must have 32 gigabit per second of PCIe bandwidth this is to","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":385.5,"end_s":390.479,"text":"address the issues folks would have with high bandwidth devices on some","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":388.62,"end_s":395.759,"text":"Thunderbolt 3 laptops particularly e-gpus and they must support security","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":393.84,"end_s":399.78,"text":"improvements that protect your device from malicious connected devices","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":397.759,"end_s":403.919,"text":"plugable.com actually has a great write-up on the differences between","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":401.22,"end_s":408.3,"text":"Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 4. what about speed though in an attempt to","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":405.96,"end_s":414.96,"text":"crack over 20 gigabit per second of transfers we are using three separate","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":411.0,"end_s":416.759,"text":"ssds and our Network share and copying","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":414.96,"end_s":422.28,"text":"all to our boot drive at the same time three more six gigabytes a second yes","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":419.34,"end_s":428.28,"text":"can confirm that we are not limited to 20 gigabit per second even though that","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":424.139,"end_s":430.319,"text":"could be the case with usb4 wow those","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":428.28,"end_s":435.12,"text":"transfers are almost all done that's really impressive those were 22 Gigabyte","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":432.6,"end_s":439.08,"text":"files mind-blowing and the most mind-blowing thing is that aside from","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":437.16,"end_s":442.979,"text":"some Cal digit devices that took a little while to be detected we didn't","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":440.819,"end_s":446.699,"text":"run into any issues using Thunderbolt devices on this laptop and those Cal","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":445.199,"end_s":451.979,"text":"digit ones they were actually just downloading drivers in the background","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":448.919,"end_s":454.199,"text":"wow but there is definitely more to know","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":451.979,"end_s":459.419,"text":"here we tested a lot of configurations and discovered not only some differences","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":456.419,"end_s":461.819,"text":"between Thunderbolt and usb4 but also","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":459.419,"end_s":467.94,"text":"between Apple's implementation and the one we found on the Corsair Voyager see","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":464.28,"end_s":469.74,"text":"on a Mac two Cinema 5K displays this","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":467.94,"end_s":474.72,"text":"would work just connect them to any Thunderbolt Port you want and it works","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":472.259,"end_s":480.84,"text":"as expected however when we attempt to do the same thing with the Voyager","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":476.52,"end_s":483.419,"text":"either only one display works or if we","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":480.84,"end_s":488.3,"text":"go through a hub we can run both of them but they're limited to 4K resolution","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":485.819,"end_s":493.139,"text":"unless we actually unplug them from our","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":490.8,"end_s":500.84,"text":"Thunderbolt ports plug one into Thunderbolt and one into the regular","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":495.979,"end_s":504.84,"text":"USBC 3.2 Port over on the other side","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":500.84,"end_s":507.12,"text":"both running at 5K the reason for this","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":504.84,"end_s":510.66,"text":"is quite interesting in the verges coverage of this laptop Corsair senior","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":508.86,"end_s":516.3,"text":"Public Relations Specialist Justin oakbina revealed that the USB 4 ports","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":513.719,"end_s":524.279,"text":"are hooked up to the CPU for display meanwhile the 3.2 ports are hooked up to","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":520.38,"end_s":526.74,"text":"the GPU so they might look the same but","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":524.279,"end_s":531.779,"text":"because they're running DisplayPort alt mode they're limited to the capabilities","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":528.54,"end_s":534.24,"text":"of whichever GPU is physically attached","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":531.779,"end_s":539.76,"text":"to them so we're able to run more than one 5K display by connecting to each of","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":537.12,"end_s":545.1,"text":"those gpus separately this is another really interesting","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":542.339,"end_s":550.14,"text":"example of different protocols behaving in different ways even if they go over","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":547.32,"end_s":555.3,"text":"the same connectors now alt mode what we're talking about here uses a physical","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":552.0,"end_s":557.459,"text":"chip connected to the USB port to send a","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":555.3,"end_s":562.74,"text":"signal down that differs from standard USB tunneling is not the same it","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":560.82,"end_s":568.08,"text":"converts the DisplayPort signal to packets that can be sent along a USB","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":565.26,"end_s":573.36,"text":"connection allowing for things like data and PCIe tunnel packets to be sent","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":570.56,"end_s":579.42,"text":"alongside so your mileage may vary depending on whether your machine uses","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":575.82,"end_s":580.62,"text":"alt mode or tunneled DisplayPort in poor","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":579.42,"end_s":584.76,"text":"Tanner if only Apple could have provided a","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":583.14,"end_s":587.58,"text":"display with an actual stand okay you're good you're unplugged yeah he's got the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":586.26,"end_s":594.839,"text":"tracksuit and everything okay thank you let's try some older more obscure stuff","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":590.1,"end_s":597.839,"text":"like this akitio dual Drive Dock and uh","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":594.839,"end_s":600.06,"text":"how about this Thunderbolt archival tape","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":597.839,"end_s":603.779,"text":"backup system I remember the tape drive actually requiring special software so","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":602.22,"end_s":607.68,"text":"it's possible this hard drive will show up even if the tape drive wouldn't oh","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":605.519,"end_s":612.48,"text":"hey there we go look at that that's awesome all right goodbye monitor","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":610.019,"end_s":617.339,"text":"external drive and there they are that's wild I mean it","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":615.779,"end_s":622.98,"text":"shouldn't surprise me that much given that usb4 is supposed to be based on the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":620.82,"end_s":626.94,"text":"Thunderbolt spec and therefore should be the same thing but you just don't expect","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":624.959,"end_s":631.26,"text":"heck to work that well right out of the gate and there were some things that led","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":629.76,"end_s":636.66,"text":"me to believe that maybe they weren't quite the same for example Thunderbolt","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":634.38,"end_s":642.06,"text":"has supported multiple Thunderbolt devices Daisy chained together since the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":639.72,"end_s":648.66,"text":"beginning but the Wikipedia page for usb4 explicitly says that such daisy","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":645.72,"end_s":654.12,"text":"chaining is not supported to clarify you could totally plug a Thunderbolt Hub","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":650.459,"end_s":656.579,"text":"into your usb4 laptop and then a USB hub","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":654.12,"end_s":661.019,"text":"into that and another one into that and so on and so forth until the signal","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":658.38,"end_s":666.959,"text":"timing becomes an issue but Intel seems to believe that connecting additional","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":663.26,"end_s":668.399,"text":"PCIe tunneling devices Downstream well","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":666.959,"end_s":675.3,"text":"that's their jam so what happens if we try it I guess","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":673.26,"end_s":679.68,"text":"we've already got this guy right here so instead of plugging our additional","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":677.16,"end_s":684.54,"text":"drives into the laptop directly why don't we daisy chain I see the hard","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":682.26,"end_s":690.839,"text":"drive in here so but there they are the ssds in here have shown up but how far","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":686.94,"end_s":692.64,"text":"can we go uh why don't we do a hub","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":690.839,"end_s":695.399,"text":"right oh yeah I don't know if we have to go all the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":693.899,"end_s":698.399,"text":"way to six but Let's do let's do one more at least here here comes another","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":697.079,"end_s":704.76,"text":"one there they are it's all showing up I","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":701.64,"end_s":707.36,"text":"want one more I want my 10 gig Ethernet","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":704.76,"end_s":710.899,"text":"say cool","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":709.86,"end_s":717.18,"text":"oh I like that one we got it working with","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":714.3,"end_s":724.019,"text":"anywhere from two to three devices pretty consistently but as you can see","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":720.3,"end_s":726.66,"text":"your mileage may vary though this is","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":724.019,"end_s":731.339,"text":"unlikely to ever affect you many newer Thunderbolt devices expect the hubs and","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":729.3,"end_s":737.1,"text":"docs have controllers in them that can communicate either using Thunderbolt","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":734.16,"end_s":742.92,"text":"like PCIe tunneling protocols or traditional USB protocols so in many","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":740.339,"end_s":748.2,"text":"cases it won't necessarily be obvious to you until you try to plug in another","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":745.32,"end_s":753.779,"text":"Downstream device which protocol your device is using now rather than trying","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":751.5,"end_s":759.899,"text":"to run all five of these devices let's go for a single really demanding one an","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":757.26,"end_s":767.399,"text":"external GPU here we go oh fan spinning that's a good sign there","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":762.839,"end_s":769.139,"text":"it is our RTX 2070 external GPU not that","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":767.399,"end_s":774.12,"text":"we'll need to upgrade the GPU anytime soon given that this laptop has a Radeon","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":771.42,"end_s":780.42,"text":"6800 in it already anyway but the point is that it does work and the a1600 does","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":778.32,"end_s":786.48,"text":"all of this partly thanks to AMD's inclusion of usb4 on their Zen 3 plus","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":782.94,"end_s":788.579,"text":"ryzen 7000 processors but in the absence","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":786.48,"end_s":792.12,"text":"of Intel standards compliance team it's also thanks to the way that Corsair has","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":790.44,"end_s":798.899,"text":"worked with their OEM to internally validate their implementation however","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":794.279,"end_s":800.22,"text":"watch how easily I can break things","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":798.899,"end_s":805.139,"text":"whoops here's what happened there while","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":802.26,"end_s":810.24,"text":"Thunderbolt has used the same USBC connector as USB devices for half a","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":807.959,"end_s":813.839,"text":"decade now the Thunderbolt protocol which you've heard me refer to a few","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":811.86,"end_s":819.36,"text":"times and it's kind of like the language that's actually being spoken over the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":816.3,"end_s":823.5,"text":"cable well it's closer to PCI Express","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":819.36,"end_s":825.18,"text":"than it is to USB so this along with its","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":823.5,"end_s":830.279,"text":"traditionally much higher data rates means that it has far less tolerance for","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":827.82,"end_s":836.76,"text":"latency and inconsistency which means that cable quality matters a lot it's","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":833.7,"end_s":838.98,"text":"not all that like here uh oh this anchor","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":836.76,"end_s":843.3,"text":"cable is one that I specifically pulled aside for this this is pretty cool","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":841.079,"end_s":848.1,"text":"because this cable is older than the usb4 spec it's just a high quality C2C","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":846.779,"end_s":852.3,"text":"cable and give it a second","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":850.32,"end_s":856.86,"text":"oh wait did that not work actually tried it on a different","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":854.339,"end_s":862.2,"text":"Thunderbolt only device this network adapter","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":858.839,"end_s":865.139,"text":"and on the network adapter it totally","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":862.2,"end_s":871.98,"text":"works in spite of this thing not having a USB operating mode that's wild let's","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":868.92,"end_s":874.8,"text":"try this usb4 type c cable one that is","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":871.98,"end_s":880.5,"text":"actually a newer validated one and see if the external GPU picks up that one no","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":877.5,"end_s":883.019,"text":"as you can see standard USBC cables","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":880.5,"end_s":889.26,"text":"might work fine even with Thunderbolt only devices but only the ones with the","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":886.86,"end_s":893.82,"text":"built-in signal stabilizer like this one are actually guaranteed to work with","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":891.899,"end_s":898.139,"text":"Thunderbolt devices and that's going to be true for any connection using that","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":896.16,"end_s":905.339,"text":"PCIe based Thunderbolt protocol regardless of whether it's on an Intel","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":901.26,"end_s":908.399,"text":"certified Thunderbolt device or a USB 4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":905.339,"end_s":910.56,"text":"device this is why USB 4 is only rated","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":908.399,"end_s":916.32,"text":"at 40 gigabit per second over a one meter cable while Thunderbolt 4 is rated","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":912.899,"end_s":919.199,"text":"at that same speed at up to 2 meters to","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":916.32,"end_s":925.8,"text":"my knowledge there are no non in tell Thunderbolt usb4 signal stabilized cable","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":922.68,"end_s":928.32,"text":"products and curiously this is another","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":925.8,"end_s":934.68,"text":"really interesting one this active Thunderbolt 3 cable from Corning didn't","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":931.32,"end_s":936.06,"text":"work on any of our devices on our usb4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":934.68,"end_s":941.639,"text":"laptop here hold on I can just demonstrate this real quick there we go","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":938.04,"end_s":943.8,"text":"yeah no dice which means that our days","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":941.639,"end_s":950.22,"text":"of Hit or Miss cable compatibility are not over even if they are a lot better","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":947.22,"end_s":952.139,"text":"to answer the question then is usb4","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":950.22,"end_s":958.26,"text":"compatible with Thunderbolt 3 and 4 devices the answer is yes","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":954.899,"end_s":960.18,"text":"but also no the level of compatibility","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":958.26,"end_s":965.579,"text":"really is going to come down to how good of an implementation you get the Corsair","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":962.1,"end_s":967.56,"text":"Voyager a 1600 performed admirably but","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":965.579,"end_s":971.82,"text":"it's a machine that implements far better than the bare minimum spec and","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":969.779,"end_s":976.019,"text":"one that doesn't go this far may not be as smooth and as we saw today your","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":974.579,"end_s":981.06,"text":"mileage may vary when it comes to unofficial features like daisy chaining","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":978.24,"end_s":985.62,"text":"and support for specialty cables like these Optical ones from Corning the big","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":983.04,"end_s":990.779,"text":"question this phrases then is why did the usbif allow half-baked usb4 at all","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":989.22,"end_s":996.42,"text":"well it seems to come down to phones mobile devices could get some very valid","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":993.48,"end_s":1000.74,"text":"benefits from usb4 like higher data rates and DisplayPort tunneling for","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":998.16,"end_s":1004.459,"text":"external devices with Samsung Dex or whatever but they're unlikely to need","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":1002.6,"end_s":1009.8,"text":"the PCIe tunneling that Thunderbolt is known for or daisy chaining and the like","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":1006.74,"end_s":1011.48,"text":"they're also unlikely to need this segue","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":1009.8,"end_s":1015.62,"text":"to our sponsor that I'm known for because we already told you it's sponsored by Corsair if you guys enjoyed","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":1},{"start_s":1014.42,"end_s":1021.98,"text":"this video and you're looking to learn more about Thunderbolt this video on ShortCircuit shows off my very favorite","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":1019.16,"end_s":1026.559,"text":"Thunderbolt 4 dock it's actually uh this one freaking awesome two and a half kick","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0},{"start_s":1024.26,"end_s":1026.559,"text":"land","speaker":null,"is_sponsor":0}],"full_text":"usb4 is an absolute Game Changer we're talking 40 gigabit per second data rates support for 8K displays and external gpus a single cable docking at up to 240 watt charging rates and all over the same USB type-c connectors and cables that you have come to know into yes what actually usb4 is more like a collection of optional standards okay it sounds like what you're talking about is USB 4 gen 3x2 with some of those optional features implemented so your sponsor origin pz would probably want you to clarify that so pedantic Riley is very annoying but he's also right I mean it shouldn't surprise me coming from the same industry Consortium that brought us naming like USB 3.2 gen 2x2 but five years after Intel's announcement that they would open source Thunderbolt USB 4 is finally out in force and has turned out to be one of the most confusing standards ever to make it onto a consumer PC the good news though is that by the time we're finished here you will understand both its pros and cons and how it operates or doesn't with other standards like Thunderbolt including real world examples the simple explanation really is that usb4 is an open version of Thunderbolt 3 based on the specifications the Intel released back in 2017. there is a lot to love about this move for one thing it frees vendors from the shackles of Intel's notoriously onerous certification process and for another it allows non-Intel CPU manufacturers like apple or especially AMD who didn't co-develop the standard to support features that used to be Thunderbolt exclusive like 40 gigabit data rates daisy chaining together multiple devices and PCIe tunneling which is super cool and allows you to turn your USBC Port into a PCI Express connection for devices like external gpus and other add-on cards the problem is that when you free the notoriously Cheapskate computer industry from compliance programs you invite shortcuts and usb4 invites a lot of shortcuts in no particular order here are the optional components of the spec that can be left off of your device while still allowing the vendor to slap usb4 on the spec sheet 40 gigabit transfer rates 20 gigabit USB 3.2 Thunderbolt alternate mode USBC alternate mode and yes PCIe tunneling yeah in a world where almost nothing you can connect to a laptop needs the speed of even a last gen USB 320 gig Port isn't the whole point of usb4 PCIe tunneling and interoperability with Thunderbolt 3 devices well Microsoft sure thought so which is why they actually require external usb4 ports on Windows 11 devices to support PCIe tunneling which theoretically ensures backwards compatibility with Thunderbolt 3 devices but there is no such guarantee if you were to buy a bare motherboard or a non-Windows device and from my conversations with a device maker whose previous Thunderbolt 3 notebook actually never ended up getting certified by Intel there is a lot more to this interoperability than just checking a box for PCIe tunneling making matters even more confusing Microsoft does not appear to have mandates in place for any of the other features the good news is that when it works it works really well here is a small bushel of Thunderbolt 3 Thunderbolt 4 and USB 4 devices that we've tried on the Voyager a1600 gaming and content creation laptop that Corsair provided for this video and I'm going to show you guys what the experience is like on a usb4 laptop after the short message from our sponsor Corsair packs the Voyager a1600 with high performance gear like their Vengeance ddr5 memory and yet managed to keep it amazingly slim the integrated Elgato steam deck allows you to map streaming commands and keyboard shortcuts to 10 easy access customizable shortcut buttons using simple drag and drop customization and Corsair's IQ software lets you fully customize the system's look monitor performance and manage your Corsair devices so you can update and fine-tune the settings to your needs it comes with a one-year comprehensive warranty for peace of mind making it the Premier Choice for laptop PC gaming or content Creation in a super compact package visit the link down below to learn more for our first trick we'll be trying to connect a couple of Thunderbolt 3 devices to our USB 4 laptop and the reason this matters is because these older devices would have been designed at a time that usb4 compatibility wouldn't have been a consideration so if they work it means that usb4 is transparently compatible with Thunderbolt 3 at least okay this one works for these particular devices now that first one I plugged in using a usb4 cable and the second one we're going to try an older Thunderbolt 3 cable we got it there it is Cal digit 10 gig network adapter this backwards compatibility means that any Thunderbolt 3 device and USB 4 system should work with each other now I would expect to find some edge cases particularly with very old devices due to Intel specific handshakes that used to be required but we didn't run into any of them while we were working on this video now let's try a Thunderbolt 4 device in the interest of giving ourselves our best shot here we're going to go ahead and use a Thunderbolt 4 validated cable look at that easy and we don't even need that old Intel application for managing all of our connected devices I mean I expected this to work the main difference between Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 4 is actually also in enforcement of compliance so Thunderbolt 4 requires in order to get the Intel badge support for two 4K displays or a single 8K display computers must have 32 gigabit per second of PCIe bandwidth this is to address the issues folks would have with high bandwidth devices on some Thunderbolt 3 laptops particularly e-gpus and they must support security improvements that protect your device from malicious connected devices plugable.com actually has a great write-up on the differences between Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 4. what about speed though in an attempt to crack over 20 gigabit per second of transfers we are using three separate ssds and our Network share and copying all to our boot drive at the same time three more six gigabytes a second yes can confirm that we are not limited to 20 gigabit per second even though that could be the case with usb4 wow those transfers are almost all done that's really impressive those were 22 Gigabyte files mind-blowing and the most mind-blowing thing is that aside from some Cal digit devices that took a little while to be detected we didn't run into any issues using Thunderbolt devices on this laptop and those Cal digit ones they were actually just downloading drivers in the background wow but there is definitely more to know here we tested a lot of configurations and discovered not only some differences between Thunderbolt and usb4 but also between Apple's implementation and the one we found on the Corsair Voyager see on a Mac two Cinema 5K displays this would work just connect them to any Thunderbolt Port you want and it works as expected however when we attempt to do the same thing with the Voyager either only one display works or if we go through a hub we can run both of them but they're limited to 4K resolution unless we actually unplug them from our Thunderbolt ports plug one into Thunderbolt and one into the regular USBC 3.2 Port over on the other side both running at 5K the reason for this is quite interesting in the verges coverage of this laptop Corsair senior Public Relations Specialist Justin oakbina revealed that the USB 4 ports are hooked up to the CPU for display meanwhile the 3.2 ports are hooked up to the GPU so they might look the same but because they're running DisplayPort alt mode they're limited to the capabilities of whichever GPU is physically attached to them so we're able to run more than one 5K display by connecting to each of those gpus separately this is another really interesting example of different protocols behaving in different ways even if they go over the same connectors now alt mode what we're talking about here uses a physical chip connected to the USB port to send a signal down that differs from standard USB tunneling is not the same it converts the DisplayPort signal to packets that can be sent along a USB connection allowing for things like data and PCIe tunnel packets to be sent alongside so your mileage may vary depending on whether your machine uses alt mode or tunneled DisplayPort in poor Tanner if only Apple could have provided a display with an actual stand okay you're good you're unplugged yeah he's got the tracksuit and everything okay thank you let's try some older more obscure stuff like this akitio dual Drive Dock and uh how about this Thunderbolt archival tape backup system I remember the tape drive actually requiring special software so it's possible this hard drive will show up even if the tape drive wouldn't oh hey there we go look at that that's awesome all right goodbye monitor external drive and there they are that's wild I mean it shouldn't surprise me that much given that usb4 is supposed to be based on the Thunderbolt spec and therefore should be the same thing but you just don't expect heck to work that well right out of the gate and there were some things that led me to believe that maybe they weren't quite the same for example Thunderbolt has supported multiple Thunderbolt devices Daisy chained together since the beginning but the Wikipedia page for usb4 explicitly says that such daisy chaining is not supported to clarify you could totally plug a Thunderbolt Hub into your usb4 laptop and then a USB hub into that and another one into that and so on and so forth until the signal timing becomes an issue but Intel seems to believe that connecting additional PCIe tunneling devices Downstream well that's their jam so what happens if we try it I guess we've already got this guy right here so instead of plugging our additional drives into the laptop directly why don't we daisy chain I see the hard drive in here so but there they are the ssds in here have shown up but how far can we go uh why don't we do a hub right oh yeah I don't know if we have to go all the way to six but Let's do let's do one more at least here here comes another one there they are it's all showing up I want one more I want my 10 gig Ethernet say cool oh I like that one we got it working with anywhere from two to three devices pretty consistently but as you can see your mileage may vary though this is unlikely to ever affect you many newer Thunderbolt devices expect the hubs and docs have controllers in them that can communicate either using Thunderbolt like PCIe tunneling protocols or traditional USB protocols so in many cases it won't necessarily be obvious to you until you try to plug in another Downstream device which protocol your device is using now rather than trying to run all five of these devices let's go for a single really demanding one an external GPU here we go oh fan spinning that's a good sign there it is our RTX 2070 external GPU not that we'll need to upgrade the GPU anytime soon given that this laptop has a Radeon 6800 in it already anyway but the point is that it does work and the a1600 does all of this partly thanks to AMD's inclusion of usb4 on their Zen 3 plus ryzen 7000 processors but in the absence of Intel standards compliance team it's also thanks to the way that Corsair has worked with their OEM to internally validate their implementation however watch how easily I can break things whoops here's what happened there while Thunderbolt has used the same USBC connector as USB devices for half a decade now the Thunderbolt protocol which you've heard me refer to a few times and it's kind of like the language that's actually being spoken over the cable well it's closer to PCI Express than it is to USB so this along with its traditionally much higher data rates means that it has far less tolerance for latency and inconsistency which means that cable quality matters a lot it's not all that like here uh oh this anchor cable is one that I specifically pulled aside for this this is pretty cool because this cable is older than the usb4 spec it's just a high quality C2C cable and give it a second oh wait did that not work actually tried it on a different Thunderbolt only device this network adapter and on the network adapter it totally works in spite of this thing not having a USB operating mode that's wild let's try this usb4 type c cable one that is actually a newer validated one and see if the external GPU picks up that one no as you can see standard USBC cables might work fine even with Thunderbolt only devices but only the ones with the built-in signal stabilizer like this one are actually guaranteed to work with Thunderbolt devices and that's going to be true for any connection using that PCIe based Thunderbolt protocol regardless of whether it's on an Intel certified Thunderbolt device or a USB 4 device this is why USB 4 is only rated at 40 gigabit per second over a one meter cable while Thunderbolt 4 is rated at that same speed at up to 2 meters to my knowledge there are no non in tell Thunderbolt usb4 signal stabilized cable products and curiously this is another really interesting one this active Thunderbolt 3 cable from Corning didn't work on any of our devices on our usb4 laptop here hold on I can just demonstrate this real quick there we go yeah no dice which means that our days of Hit or Miss cable compatibility are not over even if they are a lot better to answer the question then is usb4 compatible with Thunderbolt 3 and 4 devices the answer is yes but also no the level of compatibility really is going to come down to how good of an implementation you get the Corsair Voyager a 1600 performed admirably but it's a machine that implements far better than the bare minimum spec and one that doesn't go this far may not be as smooth and as we saw today your mileage may vary when it comes to unofficial features like daisy chaining and support for specialty cables like these Optical ones from Corning the big question this phrases then is why did the usbif allow half-baked usb4 at all well it seems to come down to phones mobile devices could get some very valid benefits from usb4 like higher data rates and DisplayPort tunneling for external devices with Samsung Dex or whatever but they're unlikely to need the PCIe tunneling that Thunderbolt is known for or daisy chaining and the like they're also unlikely to need this segue to our sponsor that I'm known for because we already told you it's sponsored by Corsair if you guys enjoyed this video and you're looking to learn more about Thunderbolt this video on ShortCircuit shows off my very favorite Thunderbolt 4 dock it's actually uh this one freaking awesome two and a half kick land"}