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hi guys um Jensen's gone right um I wanted to ask I want to ask what you

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guys thought of mantel um just to see since you guys are considered luminaries

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and large developers uh what you guys

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think oh you guys start okay I mean I

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know my opinion on it is I in terms of

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action I question Nidia have a response

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to mandle and I think that's unequivocally know they should you know

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it would be I think a horrible mistake if some reason you know somehow NVIDIA

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got panicked by this and made some lower level NVIDIA API you know you already

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have very good low-level access through the the GPU extensions that Nidia has

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always rolled out know ahead of anywhere else give you as much performance as you

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want to trade the inconvenience of doing Invidia proprietary stuff on them now

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mantle is inde AMD has talked many times

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in the past about close to the metal type architectures and it only ever

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became interesting because of their dual console if it was just a way to to do on

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the PC be a little bit more uh you know lower level for them I couldn't have

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cared less I the landscape does matter

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that they have both the major console WIS with a similar architecture that you

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can get on the PC developers will be making systems architectural changes

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that favor those um so I think it it's not a stupid thing

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for AMD to be doing at this point there's some benefits that they can reap

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from it it could have implications for steam steam box type things there um but

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I they're probably if Microsoft and Sony both embraced it that would be very very

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powerful for AMD but it doesn't look like they're going to at least Microsoft

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from the you know words that they're mouthing so I I mean if I was still

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doing all of the you know all of the B major technology coding for I for nextg

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game stuff I probably would not be embracing mantle right now uh but it

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would be there would be days when it would be extremely tempting but when I

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would dispassionately step back and look at it I probably wouldn't come down on

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the side of saying it's it's worth the effort there obviously others come to

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different conclusions sure uh there's some good

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ideas and the we really liked the idea

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of having low level low overhead access to the GPU I mean if you look back at

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what's in both directex and openl there's a lot of overhead in those apis

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and the multiple layers of them and the fact that they date back to you know the

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old STI model of Hardware rendering which is very very different than the

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modern Shader based programming model that we have now you know where you have

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potentially unified memory and a lot of

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processing power available in the GPU and lots of ways of sharing data that go

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beyond just calling a ton of API functions for everything little thing

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you want to do uh so there are good ideas there I hope that uh really helps

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the openg go committee and Microsoft shape their future apis I me if you ask

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me would I much prefer to have a low-level API for accessing the GPU the

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answer is yes but five of them each for

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different uh hardware architectures and vendor and operating systems absolutely

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not that is the wrong direction for the industry to go um and to have yet

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another AP and the PC that's still different than the standard PC DirectX

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API and it's different than the open GL op es that exists on Mac and Android and

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iOS and it's different than the PlayStation 3 PlayStation 4's lowlevel

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rendering API and it's different than what Microsoft provides in Xbox I I

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don't think it's a a good

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idea yeah

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so no one of the key things about it is

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and one of the main reasons we're doing is that it's not a replacement uh

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there's it's not designed that way at all uh the idea is that we we can solve

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some of the long-term problems that we've actually been having on the PCS

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platform all the stuff we've been talking about today of getting robust

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performance consoles type type of of of

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robust stable performance uh those are things we can experiment and work with

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with M we do that with d3d and we do that with GL also of course uh this is

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another Avenue you can see uh it's also really interesting of just essentially

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opening up something that we're quite familiar with already we've been

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spending well essentially last two years working on the nexan consoles and the

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architectures are the same we intimately familiar with with with those architectures and it's a good fit there

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just as as described and I see even

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though we're not done with our work with it and is definitely not not not done

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yet either to be to be shipped out uh I still see it as a as a success even

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right now actually just because of these conversations and the amount of things

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that actually the amount of developments and the amount of sort of both

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enthusiasm and even the opposite of enthusiasm all the type of um it's been

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bit stale you could say in in especially in the PC graphics Microsoft they switch

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Focus for for quite some time over to to other things which they probably really

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didn't need to do uh but I I think now

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going forward it's a really exciting opportunity both on the on the pieces

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basis and stuff we're experimenting with mental and learning on the Souls but

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also mobile as we discussed before of of okay what should be the future Graphics

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pipelines there there's a lot of movement in all of these things and it's it's just good to have lots of different

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Avenues to experiment uh and actually hopefully deliver concrete value uh in

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things but I completely agree with both John and Tim that if NVIDIA would do

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their own API and then Intel would do an API and then qu would do an API that's

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not a future want to be that that would be a bad future uh that would be very

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very a lot of work you mark moft and Kronos does play an important part of

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all of all this and um I hope M will be

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quite influential in in in in many these aspects also and what we're doing right

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now also specifically with with DD is is just a start um thank you yeah you

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you've used the API where we've just read the spe or the marketing materials

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um what would you say is the the two questions what do you think is the cost

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of like in man years or whatever of implementing manal support in

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Battlefield and what do you think it's the ultimate gain on PC like could you

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try to quantify that it it's it is too early to quantify we've been very busy

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just making sure our game works overall and actually sh sh shipping it out we're

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almost done with it uh so it's too early

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to say we'll have a lot more information in November mid November talk more about

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it and it will be interesting to see I think it's important also to one one

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thing that people well General people that are not developers it can be

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difficult to understand that when it comes to bits it's actually it's not not

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like the ball okay we solve this one we're done go home and the game Run as

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well and ball next is like wack you you

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find fix one and then you thought that that was the thing you made that four

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times faster and then the next B shows up after 10% of that Improvement of

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course the biggest issue is that really you have to architect your large scale

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Vision to take maximum Advantage no API

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just all of a sudden really makes a dramatic difference on things because if

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you buil a good game engine to you know to any API even if you magically made

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all that API overhead vanish it doesn't make that much of a difference it's the

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possibility of do I mean there's stuff on the gcns that I'm very excited about

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some of the asynchronous pipeline cues for different things that would be great

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to you know to take direct direct control over but then that's you know

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you either design for that or you don't design for that it will be a gradual

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approach also of sure we're doing Bel before it's not like Bel before is only

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dedicated for a specific API and specific platform it's it's it's it's a

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rich game there you want to work with something and and deliver concrete

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benefits and evaluate and then go forward and and and see where we are and

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hopefully in the future will design games based on many of the concepts that

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we're proving out a lot earlier now than what we can do otherwise and I think

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that that's actually a good change for the entire industry even though people

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sometimes do get stuck up on on like the the overall thing thinking again oh the

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same discussion as I had before of okay is mobile will replace all the PC no

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that's that will not happen same that will not replace all of the ex or all of

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the Y that they're complimentary well actually when use m is not complimentary

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but it's compliment in the in the actual industry over all uh and you want that

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competitiveness not necessarily by having five different apis but having

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movement uh uh I think that's really really interesting cool I thanks I

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appreciate it lot can you tell us tell us how much they pay for you to use

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it actually that's let's let keep

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having no I can answer a couple questions uh they didn't have to pay us

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anything to use it I've been pitching these type of ideas for for many many

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years for every single vendor uh and it's actually talking just about my my

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own egoistic view of solving my own specific problems is that we see a lot

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of stalls we see a lot of performance performance gone missing in many areas

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that we actually want to get at that performance we want to learn how to

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program a a machine on on a on a lower level that that has actually a really

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really good architecture for for that and I think that's something that will

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will sort of roll out going forward also

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okay so it's good as an R&D platform for developers you me with and John you

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were talking about the desire to have front bu for Access or something like

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that lower level API would be more likely to provide that I think it's also

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good if it pushes Microsoft and open go folks to improve their drivers by

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realizing that hey you can actually achieve a lot more performance on PC

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what the more lowlevel techniques um I think it would only be bad if the

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outcome of this is that now we have to deal with five vendor specific apis for

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AG GP yeah and also the vision for for

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mantle well it can play out many ways you don't really you can't really say

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for for sure uh but the vision for mantle is that it will it can become a

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an API also that's something we're completely open for and something is open for also it's just that that's not

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the right way to go at it initially there are those Aven Ed already with

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cronas and with these this is open API

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it wouldn't be a lowlevel well well actually I don't yeah I don't

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fully agree sure you can make an API that's completely down to the level sort

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of what you like on P we worked it was a

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very very thin abstraction now but it was completely specific with that architecture I do think the way modern

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gpus work is is quite different from

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from how the DX or you absolutely the G

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design was from from the beginning there there are extensions at Le in De Land

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where you can access many things but there there are commonalities between

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like binding for example that's an awesome thing that has been working on

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with with with G that is really the future for all GPS and if you ask the

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different vendors uh even people even vendors perhaps on mobile space that do

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not have it yet they believe that is the future well now I'm talking for all

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mobile MERS not but it makes sense as as a modern design

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for that uh and you see some some convergence towards things that are

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generally the designed and then some people are some Des

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will come a little bit later for that but when it's a great fit for for for

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key hardware and it's great fit for developers then I think well that's the

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way will go like my point about unified memory is absolutely here and we really

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need to get get down to gpus are just peers on the same memory pool as the CPU

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and we really need like documented texture layouts and not noticing that

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everything is coming soc's also so even the GPU is a combination of tons of

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different processors a significant amount of process either if it's an bet

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GPU or if it's an mgpu there's quite a lot of quite independent engines there

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and that's something that's hidden from us now the GPU is something that you

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from the CPU you prepare your commands you just give it to them and it has a

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driver that tries to figure out which goes where that's just generally good

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design to expose those things of living if you're trying to do something picky

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like using the hardware video decompression stuff or then you know

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re-encoding there you have to V to forand new API to get that Capt even

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even even like compute for example compute is well one of the best use

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cases compute is for graphics which is kind of uh yeah feels a little bit weird

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but but it's not like you want to use it both tightly coupled with your with your

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graphics and you want to use it completely separately that CPU drives

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for for loading this and stuff and you want to have background tests that that

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have U well can have really highly to see and run in the background and just

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eat up whatever Victor units that are free on your GPU that's also generally

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good design for even in the GPU space I'm hitting on these issues where I want

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GPU task scheduling and we have no concept of prioritization between GPU

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SKS where know we need to be able to specify time slices and priorities and

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you know it's down being a CPU scheduler for a finite re and well like they take

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quite a lot of time until we find a convergence to a a definite model there

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and but in the meantime it's good to have a couple of models both from

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hardware and from software sort of competing or or or being tested there uh

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and see what sort of what's come s that because I do think there will be quite

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interesting conver there's clearly a large map of

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enthusiasm in the panel for gsync um is it thus fair to say that

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you'll be playing the games that you're

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developing

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wow well if NVIDIA they have gsync they

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have I have to say they have the

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you don't you don't have M at all um it

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starts getting a little bit tricky in my view yeah NVIDIA had mantle

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and we had gsync or we had ideally all

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vendors should have alls that would be the best solution

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that the best solution for the industry but I think what you're seeing if you

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look at it from a practic point of view you'll have first mover first mover uh

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advantages for the for the companies that invest r& the effort and I should

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bring something out uh something out there uh so I'll play the game on Clos so

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forious reasons is the GC software side

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of things and Hardware side on the the card is that going to be licensable to

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like our Intel and afd going to be able to yeah we haven't precluded the notion

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of it frankly you know we're first is trying to get it going get the ecosystem

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going get the display guys going we had to change the GPU architectur get it

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going and then every included any in the future that sounds like a softw

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thinking yeah if only that pesky GC had

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thing I'm just kidding I know Tim

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John yeah well we primarily use invid Hardware at and we we buy L of

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it that's

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surprise I've got a light boost monitor on my desktop so I mean it'll probably

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update to it yeah I heard my voice call

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that uh we got the the voice of God over here telling us one more

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question